Everybody contradicts themselves from time to time since no one is perfect in the art of writing/communicating one's thoughts. What may seem like a discrepency may not be... and/or can be selective on the part of the writer. For instance he may not think of talking to an individual here and there as "teaching" groups of people. In his mind teaching groups of people might be more akin to organizing actual separate bible study groups on a regular basis. I don't think he could rightly be accused of fomenting dissention and acting against the society just because he's talked to a few friends or people who approached him.
Unfettered
JoinedPosts by Unfettered
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21
Who's Read Crisis of Conscience More Than Once?
by minimus ini've been re-reading it again and i'm definetly getting more out of it the 3rd time around.
i wonder why that is....
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Who's Read Crisis of Conscience More Than Once?
by minimus ini've been re-reading it again and i'm definetly getting more out of it the 3rd time around.
i wonder why that is....
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Unfettered
Every time you read ANYTHING you will get more out of it. Part of the reason for that is that we are constantly growing and changing. When you read something you are filtering what you read through your current level of experience, viewpoints, and beliefs. Thus, there will literally be things you simply ignore, miss, or just don't get the first time around. As you grow and your experience and your beliefs change your perspective changes and when you read something again you are able to then see more clearly things you couldn't quite grasp before.
I think I've read it about 3 times and am due for a 4th time along with the other books as well. As someone mentioned refreshing oneself of the details is necessary from time to time and is very encouraging as well.
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I'm not a Buddhist, but...............PART 2
by Dansk inas i can't post to the original thread started by nicolaou, i'm doing so here:.
hi fleur,but the part that really, well, frankly creeped me out for lack of a better term, is that he left his wife and child, then starved himself nearly to death before he realized that this wasn't the way to go, and he lived as a homeless person, begging food as he went on his path to enlightenment.
that's a rather simplified version of events.
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Unfettered
Dansk,
In my experience every word you wrote in your last post is true. However, there is a little more to it. The words, "it's accepted that the devotee alone, unaided by a guru, is unlikely to make much progress" could be a little misleading. Having had "eastern" masters myself I know that it is indeed known that a student will grow quicker at certain points with a Master. However, the master does not hold the hand of the student 24/7. The idea is not that the master become the say all leader of the student. It is also recognized that many Sijo's (or founding masters) either never had earthly masters to teach them, or learned various things from many masters from which they themselves extrapolated a greater truth or system. It's important to recognize how much the immediate self is necessary for individual growth.
I teach Martial Arts, but I'm also an employer. I notice the same thing from some employees that I notice from some students. Some employees and some students are constantly looking to the Master/Employer for EVERY answer instead of taking the initiative to figure some things out for themselves. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem answering "appropriate" questions... but an inapropriate question or leaning on the teacher would be asking a question to which you might yourself be able to reason out or experience by putting just a little effort out on your own part. This is part of the cycle of growth, learning how to find our own answers and develop self-motivation. What I personally find to be true is that students/employees that exert themselves to figure out their own answers, as well as asking questions when appropriate to their master/employer are the ones that excel the fastest and out perform others. Indeed, some masters of martial arts will not take students who do not demonstrate this quality to think for themselves already.
When you have a child or a baby as a father or mother you would carry the baby around at it's earliest stages. Then you would do things that would help it's legs to become stronger. Then you would put it up on it's legs and see if it could walk. You would keep your hands close by, but as much as possible you would let the baby walk under it's own power. In time you let the baby walk completely on it's own, but keep a close eye on it. Soon it is a young child you never even think of helping to walk.... then later an adult etc. The idea is to develop self-dependence and not dependence upon a parent or master.
Both the need and the desire to acquire a master is a very personal thing based on one's own unique needs at the moment. As much as possible I encourage people to figure things out for themselves ALONG with the aid of both Masters and Self-Study. Ian is absolutely right when he says only so much can be learned from a book... that however should not minimize the vast amount that can be learned from the writings of wise individuals as well as deep introspection and self-analysis.
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I'm not a Buddhist, but...............PART 2
by Dansk inas i can't post to the original thread started by nicolaou, i'm doing so here:.
hi fleur,but the part that really, well, frankly creeped me out for lack of a better term, is that he left his wife and child, then starved himself nearly to death before he realized that this wasn't the way to go, and he lived as a homeless person, begging food as he went on his path to enlightenment.
that's a rather simplified version of events.
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Unfettered
Thank you... I hope you continue to share your insights and experiences.
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2 Tim. 3:16
by kwintestal in"all scripture is inspired by god".
when this was written, was it referring to the ot only, or did it refer to the nt as well which hadn't yet been compiled?
did paul know that the letters he was writing would form the nt bible cannon?
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Unfettered
Great! we are on the same page then. I just thought I said something that might have offended someone who may still be somewhat fundamental in their belief system. Didn't want to be a thread killer.
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2 Tim. 3:16
by kwintestal in"all scripture is inspired by god".
when this was written, was it referring to the ot only, or did it refer to the nt as well which hadn't yet been compiled?
did paul know that the letters he was writing would form the nt bible cannon?
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Unfettered
Has no one else here read the Book of Enoch?
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To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe
by AlmostAtheist inhey gang,.
this isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread.
i enter with an informed but open mind.
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Unfettered
sure, you could just do that too.
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THE GENERATION OF 1914
by Mary init makes you wonder when exactly the governing body and their lawyers decided to change the "generation of 1914" doctrine.
the first quotation below is from the 1992 wt and the second one from the 1993 brochure the purpose of life, just two lousy years before they imfamously dropped the whole idea:
*** w92 5/1 p. 7 the 1914 generation?why significant?
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Unfettered
Namasti,
I acknowledge your experiences as being obviously negative and causing those feelings in you. However, your experiences are not my experiences and visa versa. My experience does not minimize the reality of yours. There are a lot of people who are "damaged" by the religion and/or persons within the religion, and yet at the same time there are many people like myself who are not damaged by it because we happened to be spared contact with some of the worst individuals in it and/or decided to depart long before any serious damage could be done. So, I feel for you, and recognize your feelings and acknowledge them as being very real and based on very real experiences... but at the same time my own experiences are very real as well. I cannot form a hateful opinion of the religion based on my experience... but I do in fact realize it's fallacies... if I didn't I wouldn't be out of the religion and here talking with you. I'm attempting to keep a balanced point of view so as not to be extreme in one way or another. It's difficult to see what really is true during extremes.
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I'm not a Buddhist, but...............PART 2
by Dansk inas i can't post to the original thread started by nicolaou, i'm doing so here:.
hi fleur,but the part that really, well, frankly creeped me out for lack of a better term, is that he left his wife and child, then starved himself nearly to death before he realized that this wasn't the way to go, and he lived as a homeless person, begging food as he went on his path to enlightenment.
that's a rather simplified version of events.
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Unfettered
Ian,
I'm not Buddhist so I can't comment on the Buddhist path with any authority, but I find some of your comments fascinating. I'm hoping you'll continue to illuminate us. Let me also clarify again that any statements I make come from my own unique perspective and don't necessarily reflect the nature of TRUTH for any other individual here. They are simply my own experiences.
If I reached a certain state I wouldn?t discuss it openly here, because it ...could actually affect the progress of another student
In my experience this is very true. However, it can either be an affect toward the negative or the positive. We are all constantly affecting one another. I try to be conscious of how my statements and actions may affect others as well, but I don't let the the fact that it does stop me from sharing experiences as I feel motivated or impelled. Sometimes such experiences are exactly what others need, so personally I hope you won't hold back too much. Sometimes I think of it like reading a book. I can open a book on any topic and read it. The moment I read it I get a certain amount of information from it that I can process. However, if I go back and read that same book again 2 years later I am amazed that I now understand some of the statements I don't even remember seeing before in a new light. This has all happened to all of us who have read the bible repeatedly. I believe this happens because our minds actively filter out that which we are not able/ready/willing to accept and/or comprehend at that moment. So, I think the same thing happens in conversation as well as obviously in these types of posts. If someone is not ready for something I say, it is likely they just won't understand it, and/or will ignore it mentally. If they for some reason latch onto it, perhaps that is because they are ready to digest it at that moment. In general agree with your caution however.
Only a master can help one through what one sees
But, what is a master? I could say I know many "masters" in the Martial Arts. In fact I can call myself a "Master" in the martial arts (though compared to some other "masters" I'm nothing). The word Sifu in chinese is commonly rendered here in the US as "Master", but the word simply means "teacher". The word Sijo is the word for a Teacher who is also the Founder of a particular art. These two words apply to any trade or skill, not just martial arts. So, a "master" is really just a teacher who has aquired enough skill to be better than the average person at a particular art or trade. It does not mean they are infallible, perfect, or that they always know what is best for you. My personal experience is that the saying "when the student is ready the master/teacher will come" has always been true for me.
Whenever I reach a particular area or level of growth in any particular area and need the next step, some guidance is provided to me. This comes in many different forms. It could be a book written a long time ago to which I was never really attracted to until now. It could be a friend who suddenly begins providing me excellent advice I need at the moment. It could be school with a teacher I am particularly drawn to. It could also be a dream and/or an astral experience in which I speak with a Guide/higher level being that provides me instructions for particular things (this has happened to me).
I believe we are dynamic creatures living in a dynamic universe where static rules do not apply. Go with the flow, get in touch with your inner knowing (as fleur seems to be doing) and follow the inner knowing to your next teacher in whatever form it may appear. Remember, teachers do not know everything... BUT, the teacher you need at any moment will have a piece of the puzzle that you need for your particular stage of growth at this moment. Be careful not to ATTACH yourself to any one master/teacher. This is in fact where a lot of religions begin to develop and lead people astray. Rather than looking inward at their OWN unique path, people begin to allow the Master or Teacher tell them what their path should be. Don't get me wrong. We ALL need to be told where to go sometimes... we all need advice... we all need guidance... but there is a difference between critically listening to advice and guidance, and blindly allowing ourselves to be lead by the same person or group to the exclusion of all other sources of guidance and knowledge.
Also, remember that since we are all connected and really we are all ONE... when you say someone else is helping or guiding you, in reality you are saying you are guiding yourself. Sometimes what is lacking is not the KNOWING of what to do, it is the confidence to trust in one's own knowing. So, we tend to look toward external advice for confirmation of what we may already know inside. Over time hopefully our confidence in and ability to discern that knowledge grows to a point that we no longer NEED external masters/teachers.
However, that being said, some people absolutely need them. It all depends on where you personally are at any given moment in your own growth and awareness. Personally, I believe that religions are necessary "evils" for want of a better word... maybe I could use the word structures or institutions. To illustrate, I read an interview recently with a Buddhist monk in Tibet. The interviewer asked the monk about the various rituals and celebrations the people in Tibet do and perform. They have various rituals and parades and get all dressed up hit gongs and burn incense and have prayer wheels etc. The Buddhist monk responded by saying that most of the people are like children. They need toys to play with. It's like a child in a play pen. The play pen is an environment to grow in. Within the play pen are various toys for them to play with and occupy themselves. These toys do not really represent reality, but they are in fact shadows of the reality or symbolic of reality. As adults we know that the toy bear is not a real bear, but only a symbolic representation of one that the child plays with. This applies to all his toys. However, as the child grows and matures they will realize the emptiness or lack of real value that the toys he is playing with provide. Naturally, the child will then begin to look for that which is MORE real... more substantial... that which has greater true value and is a closer representation of reality. The Buddhist monk went on to state that higher level Buddhist monks care nothing for and do not need the prayer wheels, the incense, the candles, the masks and gold ornamentation, the cloathing. All of that disappears and one is able to exist in a state of contented happiness without such things... and yet, who would take the toys away from a child and try to force them to grow up when they are only 3 years old? A small child NEEDS structure, and toys. So too, I believe many souls in this world still NEED religion. Just as every parent is not perfect, not every religion is perfect... and some are worse than others. However, just like with any child who has any parent, every child must grow up and at some point decide to leave the nest and grow beyond the boundries established by their parents.
I am reading right now and concentrating on being still
Fleur, this is excellent. Stillness is one of the most important aspects or skills to learn. It is very closely tied to both focus and awareness and your concentrating on stillness will improve both of these. Please feel free to share any of your experiences in stillness as you progress.
In regard to Taosim and Buddhism, well, I am neither Taoist nor Buddhist, but the foundations of both of these agree with who I am and my own philosophy. I did not evolve my own philosophy by reading about these "ways" or systems. My own inner philosophy or outlook evolved through prayer, meditation, and personal experience. However, what's so fascinating to me is that these practitioners of Buddhism and Taoism developed their philosophies in a similar manner... prayer, meditation, and personal experience... and the founding principles all seem to be the same. The differences in them all seem to arise over time as technical details and/or the tainting of a "way" by persons less aware and less experienced interpreting the sayings of these individuals and forming their own egocentric systems. I have been flaberghasted to read in both ancient Taoist and Buddhist texts passages that seem like direct quotes of Jesus and yet these were written before Jesus, so was he quoting from them... or is it possible Jesus was just a "Buddha" or enlightened being/soul who has been misrepresented over time by those less aware and experienced? I tend to believe that is the case. In any event I feel there is great merit in studying and reading about both of these philosophies as well as Zen. Look for the similarities, because I believe that in the similarities is where you will find the most "truth". Also, when someone simply says or writes something I personally give more weight to it if the person says, "I had this experience", rather than the person just giving their opinion based on their "logic". In my experience Truth is far from "logical". Logic is flawed because logic is only based upon what one knows or can see at any given moment. Pure experience is closer to truth although not always necessarily absolute truth. Experience can also be deceiving at times. However, going back to why logic doesn't usually lead to the truth behind complex things such as this reality we live in...
Imagine you and some friends are working together to put together a jig saw puzzle on the ground. The jig saw puzzle is a picture of something, but you don't know what it is. So, you start putting the pieces together but you cannot see the whole picture yet. As you put it together you see a leaf form... ah... then you see a flower form... ah... then you see some grass form... ah... then you see some tree bark form... ah ha! you say! I know what the picture is! This is a picture of a forest with trees and flowers! So logical... of course because it is based on evidence right? So, you tell everyone in the room with you, "don't worry... there is no need for you to continue working on the jigsaw puzzle... I've already figured it out... I have the truth. You don't need to think for yourselves anymore or put any more pieces together... just listen to me... I know the answer.".
Well fortunately, a couple of your friends do not decide to follow your advice and conclusions based on "logic" or the evidence at hand. So, they continue putting the jigsaw puzzle together and finish it. Low and behold the picture turns out not to be a forest of trees and plants, but rather a picture of only one tree sitting in a patch of dirt and grass in the middle of an urban city with buildings around it. Thus, logic generally is limited and will not generally lead to the truest picture. It is my belief however that during episodes of personal experience during meditation (and even in other things) that one is able to get larger chunks or pieces of the entire picture. So, that is why I tend to give more weight to a persons words when they say, I had this particular experience. Because the experience they had is more likely to be one of the missing puzzle pieces than when they just come up with some concocted theory based on their limited evidence and viewpoint. When someone tells me they had a particular experience I listen with rapt attention and try to see how that experience fits into the framework of my own experience to see if it might illuminate my own experiences further.
As you read you will notice many of the fundamental Buddhist, Zen, and Taoist philosophies come from direct experiences. How those experiences are interpreted may not always be THE TRUTH, but the experiences themselves are extremely valuable. You might find it interesting to read the experiences of Robert Monroe in his books as well.
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I'm not a Buddhist, but...............PART 2
by Dansk inas i can't post to the original thread started by nicolaou, i'm doing so here:.
hi fleur,but the part that really, well, frankly creeped me out for lack of a better term, is that he left his wife and child, then starved himself nearly to death before he realized that this wasn't the way to go, and he lived as a homeless person, begging food as he went on his path to enlightenment.
that's a rather simplified version of events.
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Unfettered
Fleur, you raise some interesting points from your own unique perspective. In order to fully express how I feel about them I'll supply another personal anecdote.
I'm currently a martial arts instructor. We find that MOST new students to the martial arts have in common the fact that they are both too tense and lack body awareness. So, what happens is we have to start them doing certain motions and defensive and offensive movements slowly so that they don't injure either themselves or their partner. Usually tension results in them hurting themselves. So, one of the things we continuously spout are the words, "just relax and breath... relax... relax...". Now, when we say relax, relax, relax we don't literally mean that they should just crumple to the floor in a heap of total relaxation. What we mean is that they need to relax more than they currently are. In any form of exercise or sport it is necessary to develop agility of mind, and the ability to change ones state from relaxed to tense in a very controlled manner that is appropriate to any given situation. For example when blocking a powerful blow you might need to become tense for a moment, but you would not necessarily have to tense the whole body and definitely would not remain tense long after the blow has ended. To do so would make you static, unmoving, and an easy target. So, you can see hopefully the need to be able to change your state of being very quickly in a controlled manner. This same level of mental control is necessary in order to be successful at ANYTHING including life, relationships, love, business, etc...
So, with the MAJORITY of students we say over and over relax, relax, relax... because MOST students are more tense than they need to be. However, in every class of about 30 students there's at least one or two students we have to encourage in the opposite direction... "stand up straighter, tighten your stomache, hold your ground, keep your eyes up" etc where we are encouraging them to be more forceful rather than cringing and collapsing backward into the fetal position on the floor. Those people are TOO relaxed.
I think this exact type of situation applies in every aspect of life. I think that a very large group of human beings suffer from a lack of ability to truly empathize with others. They are generally mostly self-focussed with bouts of compassion here and there, and have not learned to practice compassion in every appropriate occasion. However, in every group of so many of those people you will encounter people who may be a little more at the opposite extreme of being TOO empathetic to the extent that they do not know how to turn off or shield themselves from other people's feelings. They are too open and lack the control to open and close themselves as necessary in any particular situation. Perhaps you may lean more in this direction. I don't know you so I can't really say what type of person you are. However, regardless of which type of person you or I or anyone else is, it is absolutely essential to learn how to "control" our ability to change our state of being at will. That is, to open ourselves when appropriate, and close ourselves when necessary as well for our own survival. This is the essence of the Yin Yang and Taoism... soft/hard, cold/hot, open/closed. There is a balance or equalibrium to attain. The practioner learns to become more pliable or "agile" with both their mind and their body so that when they need to be hard/closed they can be and when they should be soft/open they can do so very quickly. Agility is the ability to change oneself quickly. Obviously it's one I continue to pursue myself otherwise I would no longer need to incarnate on the earth in order to learn those lessons that will help me achieve that control and balance. Agility of focus is another important quality to train... however, perhaps more on that later.