Posts by stevenyc

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

thirdwitness
thank you for your response. What you have shown for all to see is how you make interpretations where they don't belong. You have demonstrated amply how twisting scripture to support a false doctrine is required by yur governing body to maintan their control over you.

I will respond shortly to show, using only the bible, how twisted you can be. However, right now I'm watching the opener of the football season between Bolton v Spurs, and that requires my full, undivided attention.

steve

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

thirdwitness:
:I say: Don't you just hate it when people use the WT publication in a attempt to prove their points. If I can start quoting WT publications and you are willing to accept them as truth then I am afraid you will lose all of your arguments hands down.

Well, the title of your thread says: "but this Time By Using the Bible", unless of course if you take the govering body's publications as the bible.

:Oh but you enemies of 607 already are losing your arguments hands down.

HA!

:So that you are reduced to silly cartoons and name calling and of course the ususal statement of, 'You refuse to answer my questions' when the reality is I have went thru and answered every question pertaining to this subject.

Well, you still haven't responded to mine. And please note, as a respectful reminder, using only the bible.

steve

11

Book of Daniel

by blackswan Number 2 in

i do not want to get into the whole 607 vs 587 debate here.

not my intent.

as of right now i am wondering about the book of daniel.

stevenyc

I remember reading something about the original texts being dated or referenced to the desecration of the Jerusalem Temple 160's BC.

I would be very interested if someone knows more information of this.

PS

Good topic blackswan, and welcome to JWD.

steve

17

ex-Bethelites - How many people at Bethel were anointed?

by Lady Lee in

.

i read an interesting question on one of my threadshow many people at bethel were anointed?

how many of those were on the gb?can you estimate the percentage of people at bethel who were anointed vs non-anointed?

stevenyc

Joe Grundy:
: Can I ask a question as an outsider?
:if the JWs believe that there are currently about 8,000+ 'anointed' living, and that the 'anointed' are the F&DS, why is there no procedure for WTBTS to consult the 'anointed' to ensure that WTBTS is getting updates from jehovah?

That's a good question. But, easily answered.

The society views the people as 'partakers' or 'those that believe they are of the anointed'. The only FDS that are recognized are the FDS members of the governing body and those that are closely associated with it. Even members of the governing body have been disfellowshipped, therefore "freeing up a spot" for younger members.

All decisions of the governing body are behind closed doors, and so accountability is behind closed doors. For a recomendation of any sort to be made a two thirds majority vote has to be made behind closed doors.

I would recomend reading Ray Franz's book 'A crisis of conscience'. He was a member of the governing body and gives a detailed account of the entire process.

steve

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

AuldSoul said: The Watchtower Society trained him to be a good little sophist, and they have done a masterful job.

For anyone needing a good explaination of what AuldSoul is trying to explain here I would recommend searching for the term "Chewbacca Defense "

fjtoth, you crack me up!

steve

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

steve: 24 "...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes"Daniel says "the kingdoms of men" NOT "ruler of HIS kingdom".Stop twisting scripture!

This looks like a You say tomato and I..... The ruler of His (God's) Kingdom is certainly the ruler over the 'kingdoms of men', all of the kingdoms of men since God's kingdom will crush the rest as Dan 2:44 says.

Once again we can see how a Jehovahs Witness will side with what he reads in the Governing Body's literature over what he reads in the bible. We are not talking about the vision of the statue, We are talking about the vision of the tree. In the vision of the statue Daniel specifically tells us which part of the statue is king Neb, and when the events are to occur, 2:45: "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."

In the vision of the tree, Daniel specificlly tells what the tree represents,

22 you, O king, are that tree!..",24 "This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven..."

And Daniel tells us for how long

25".. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes.

who's kingdom it refers to and the reason why

26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules.

When it was fullfilled

28 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled..."

The vision of the tree in Daniel 4 is a simple demonstration of how Jehovahs Witnesses change what is written in the bible. Daniel says one thing, the Governing Body says something else.

Who should the Jehovahs Witness side with???

steve

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

thirdwitness,

I would appreciate a response to my explanation of Daniel 4.

Look at my posts. I am only using the bible. Not extra-interpretation.

Up for the challenge?

steve

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

AlanF and Hillary_step,

In his post 211 Thirdwitness made an interesting statement which I found a perfect example of how a high control group effects its subjects rational.

Yes, he used the works of others just as he did in showing there was no hellfire and God was not a Trinity etc. But it is irrlevant. Overcome my points. Not what Brother Russell has written. I'm sure you will now bring up the great Pyamid but the fact is that I don't believe in the Great Pyramid as being sacred and neither do JWs today. When we have seen something is wrong we willingly make the changes unlike Christendom's religions.

It’s the final sentence, “When we have seen something is wrong we willingly make the changes unlike Christendom's religions.”

I’m sure thirdwitness believes this statement. I’m also sure that thirdwitness is unaware of the implications of his statement: that he is permitted to make such a decleration of counter-doctrine when said doctrine is in error. Thirdwitness sees himself as making a decision of doctrinal change when in fact, it comes out of Brooklyn.

He is unable to even voice that suggestion without reproof from the society. The only men in that organization able to make a change because of wrongful doctrine are the governing body.

Its a perfect example how the rational of mind becomes confused with what is real and what is not when that mind is forbidden self control.

Shame really.

steve

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

Thirdwitness, your twisting scriptures again. This is so blatantly obvious:

But the answer is Yes, Daniel showed that Jehovah's rulership was forever and that he would put whomever he liked as ruler of his kingdom even the lowliest one of mankind which";was to be";Jesus that he would appoint as king"; This would happen at the end of the 7 times.";

That NOT what Daniel himself says:

17 " 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

24 "...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes"

Daniel says "the kingdoms of men" NOT "ruler of HIS kingdom".

Stop twisting scripture!

steve

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

stevenyc

thirdwitness said:

That Daniel 4 said that Neb was the head and that was it.

Well lets see what Daniel 4 says: (remember we're looking for the part where Daniel says king Neb was the head).V1 - 8 are king Neb declaring Daniels God great, and letting us know he had a dream that no one could interpret until Daniel enters the story.

8 Finally, Daniel came into my presence and I told him the dream. (He is called Belteshazzar, after the name of my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.)
9 I said, "Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream; interpret it for me. 10 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. 11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth. 12 Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it the beasts of the field found shelter, and the birds of the air lived in its branches; from it every creature was fed.

So king Neb describes a high tree that touched the sky with abundant fruit and sheltered animals

13 "In the visions I saw while lying in my bed, I looked, and there before me was a messenger,a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He called in a loud voice: 'Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. 15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field.
The from heaven a message to chop the tree down leaving the stump and roots bound.

" 'Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth. 16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him. 17 " 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

Then 'he' would live with the animals with his mind changed to that of an animal. This is so that the living will know who's the boss.

18 "This is the dream that I, King Nebuchadnezzar, had. Now, Belteshazzar, tell me what it means, for none of the wise men in my kingdom can interpret it for me. But you can, because the spirit of the holy gods is in you."
Daniel come to the rescue:
19 Then Daniel (also called Belteshazzar) was greatly perplexed for a time, and his thoughts terrified him. So the king said, "Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you."

Daniel gets a bit scared because he knew what the dream meant, and was now going to have to tell the king.

Belteshazzar answered, "My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the beasts of the field, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds of the air- 22 you, O king, are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.
So Daniel comes out with it and tells king Neb that he is the tree. (Note: Daniel does NOT say ANYTHING about king Neb being part of the tree as thirdwitness implies.)
23 "You, O king, saw a messenger, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump, bound with iron and bronze, in the grass of the field, while its roots remain in the ground. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven; let him live like the wild animals, until seven times pass by for him.'
24 "This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes. 26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, O king, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue."

He then give the FULL interpretation: king Neb will go mad for 7 years, until he acknowledges the Most High.

28 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 Twelve months later, as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?"
31 The words were still on his lips when a voice came from heaven, "This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes."
33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like cattle. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.
34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.
His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"
36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

The prophecy is then fulfilled. Twelve months later the haughty king is brought down to earth. After seven years his sanity was restored, and he praised the Most High.

That's it. There is ABSOLUTLY nothing to suggest that this dream means anything other than what Daniel wrote.

Well if you don't want to search the scriptures of course you want find any answers or any truth.

You barking up the wrong tree here thirdwitness. You are searching other scriptures and twisting the bible for your own ends, or at least your mommies own ends. Daniel is very specific in his interpretation of this vision. He said it was fulfilled. In other visions that Daniel had, the messenger tells him when the visions are for a future reference. Daniel is very clear on this throughout his book.

Daniel out-rightly tells us that it is about God's kingdom and whoever he wants he will make rule.

Actually Daniels interpretation says this punishment is between king Neb and God? V32, "...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes." The messenger in the vision says that king Nebs downfall is V17"..so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men. This is the lesson of king Neb and the seven years of insanity.

That is the theme of Daniel 4 as I showed in the first post I made.

Correct. That is what Daniel 4 is all about. The great king Neb is brought down to his knees by God to show him who's boss. V28, "All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar." V33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled.."

And the connections are clear to Ezek 17, 19, and 21.

Ezekiel 17, 19, and 21 have NOTHING to do with king Nebs madness. Would you like me to post those scriptures verbatim to show how twisted you words are? It may have similar lessons to give. There are many examples in the bible of this lesson. You know the one: "Don't get too high and mighty because its God who gives the power."

The meaning of Daniel 4 had been twisted and used by many Adventist groups over the last two centuries. Some have admitted their mistakes and have stopped interpreting at, while others have admitted their mistakes and have reinterpreted it.

Which group do you belong to thirdwitness ?

steve