According to The Christian Science Monitor, as of 1998 there were 4.7 billion adherantce to 'Babylon the Great'. Quite staggering next to the 0.006 billion Jdubs.
steve
stevenyc
JoinedPosts by stevenyc
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17
I thought Babylon the Great had fallen
by beautifulisfree ini swear the wtbs used to teach that 'babylon the great' had already fallen?
and that 'false religion' was drying up?
is this what the society is 'correcting in their book?
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
Also, by their own definition, the governing body cannot be the faithful and discreet slave.
You can't worm out of it. Its written in Matthew 24, and their literature for all to see.
steve -
1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
Try again:
The interpretation of 'all the belongings' as given to us by the faithful and discreet slave clearly shows us that they believe that they have only been appointed over the earthly belongings of the master because of the increase that their faithfulness has brought.
steve -
1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
The context of Matthew 24 is all that is required to debunk another doctrine from our friends the Governing Body. As has been explained by thirdwitness, the Watchtower society interprets Jesus' second return as happening in 1914 'invisibly' (coming with presence(parousia)), and then his third coming, 'visibly'(coming, not including presence((erchomai)) at armageddon.
Also, as has been shown, the Watchtower society has assumed authority over its followers by claiming they are the 'faithful and discreet slave' prophesied by Jesus. (Note: the text is actually a parable and not a prophecy, but that is something we can discuss later). And, that Jesus HAS ALREADY appointed ALL his belongings to them. [see The Watchtower Feb 1, 1985, p.21: Hence, the invisible Master has appointed this dependable "slave" class "over all his belongings" of a spiritual kind].
The NWT version of Matthew 24 45-47 says:
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.
Using the context of Matthew, Jesus says that he will appoint all his belongings to the faithful and discreet slave when he arrives(visibly(erchomai)).
Therefore, there are two conclusions:
1, that Jesus came invisibly in 1914 and has still to pick a religion to assume the position of the 'faithful and discreet slave'.
Or, 2, That he didn't come in 1914, and the Chapter means something else.
Either way, Matthew 24 insists that the Governing body of the Watchtower society loses its proclaimed authority over its worshippers.
steve -
1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
Thirdwitness: And just to make this clear, yes, the master did erchomai in 1914. And he stayed thus his parousia began. He will erchomai forth again at Armageddon at the end of his parousia to finish the job he started in 1914
Ah, the famous "third-coming". You know, there's a joke in there, however, this isn't in there Adult section so ....
I love the way thirdwitness boldly proclaims the "simplicity" of the governing bodies teaching. I was brought up on this crap, and used to convert people using it. I read his link to the 'faithful and discreet slave', and I had to re-read it twice to understand it, it was so simple.
In fact, thirdwitness should be disfellowshipped for what he wrote:
The reality is that even if the faithful and discreet slave has not yet been appointed over all of the master's belongings (as interpreted by some) he has still been appointed to provide the food because he has proven himself to be faithful and discreet. It is really only a matter of quibbling over a word or phrase and its perceived interpretation. The interpretation of 'all the belongings' as given to us by the faithful and discreet slave clearly shows us that they believe that they have only been appointed over the earthly belongings of the master because of the increase that their faithfulness has brought. So whether or not the faithful slave has been appointed over all the belongings as of yet as interpreted by someone else really changes nothing from our standpoint. We still are under obligation to find that faithful and discreet slave that has increased the master's belongings and take in the food that is provided if we want to to be sustained. Certainly it would not be worth leaving Jehovah's organization over such a minor point. Especially when considering all the basic truths that we have learned from Jehovah by means of that faithful and discreet slave.
The Watchtower Feb 1, 1985 says: Hence, the invisible Master has appointed this dependable "slave" class "over all his belongings" of a spiritual kind.
The Watchtower Jan 15, 2001 says: ‘The faithful slave’ has been ‘appointed over all his master’s belongings.’
The Watchtower Dec 1, 1992 says: 'The year 1914 began what the Bible calls “the Lord’s day.” (Revelation 1:10) Momentous events were to take place during that day, including the identifying of “the faithful and discreet slave” and the appointing of that one “over all [the Master’s] belongings.'
steve
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21
Going to NYC Tomorrow - Any Suggestions What to See, Hear, Eat - Cheap?
by Seeker4 inlori and i are headed to nyc tomorrow, and we'll be there 'til thursday.
we'll also have limited funds (ie: don't suggest a broadway show!
any specific suggestions on good, inexpensive things to do, places to see, music, art, food?
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stevenyc
Hey, PM me if you fancy meeting up for a pint!
steve
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
Fisherman: Here is the catch all: What did God mean when he inspired that thought Parousia?
You've hit the nail on the head here. It's all in the context. This is what everyone has been trying to explain. Context vs Dogma.
steve
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
Jayhawk1: am wondering, is there any scholar who said anything about parousia post 1960? There has to be somebody, right? I have no plans to do any research on this myself, but I'm sure somebody on this board already has the answer.
Yep, the greatest shkoola of all time, Mr Nathan H. Knorr wrote about it. You can read his works here: www.watchtower.org
Hope this helps.
steve [Now where's that 'tongue in cheek' smiley]
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
TD: Problem is, there is nothing in the word parousia that even remotely implies, let alone requires, invisibility. Regardless of whether it denotes, "arrival" or "coming" or "presence" or "arrival with a subsequent presence" the word was used at the time and is still used today to describe something visible and tangible.
Thanks for this TD. Personally, I don't see what the fuss is all about. The NWT uses parousia as 'presence', and other bible translations use 'coming' or 'advent'. Each could be said as being visible or invisible, but neither requires a state of visibility or invisibility. Even Vine's usage of parousia insists on an initial arrival or coming and then associates a presense with that. You could say, using the Vine definition:
When Elvis came on stage, he did it with PAROUSIA.
It may be an interesting etymological discussion, but not necessary to debunk the governing bodies interpretation of Matthew, Mark, or Luke. Matthew 24 does this on its own merit.
steve
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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stevenyc
Somewhere back in the dusty places of my memory, I seem to recall that it was "The Emphatic Diaglott" that Russell used. Does anyone know if this is true? Or did I dream it?
steve