ithinkisee

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Posts by ithinkisee

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  67

  The serious conversation with the wife about the cult

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if you needed my background, this thread will tell it-.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/121888/1.ashx.

  my wife recently asked me about not commenting at a wt study.. our discussion was the topic of this thread-.

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  ithinkisee

  Wow, that was a great read. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
  
  It is really great to see that you two have always seemed to have generally good communication (well as good as can be expected, as even the best marriages have ups and downs).
  
  The challenge for myself and Freedomloverr initially was that we did not have great communication - more my fault than hers - but it added the additional challenge.
  
  Continuing to just be interested in truth and love will go a long way towards securing your wife's freedom in the longterm. I like how you don't position it as a "I'm right and you;re wrong" argument and more of an "I love you and I am making myself vulnerable to you by telling you these things."
  
  Not sure if that makes sense or not, so I'll just say that great things should happen with you two. Keep taking it slow - you're doing awesome!
  
  -ithinkisee
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  39

  Meditation, letting the demons in

  by free2beme in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i remember asking an elder once, "what do you think about meditation?

  " he responded that we should not relax and open our minds, as opening our minds can let demons in.

  i thought that seemed like a odd response, and looked it up in the watchtower, and sure enough he gave the societies views on meditation.

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  ithinkisee

  Additionally,
  
  I have been journaling my progress through my 8-week 8-minute meditation regimen. Here is an excerpt from week two where I started noticing significant progress. Before this point I would usually simply feel relaxed from breathing slow and taking a "time out" - that was about it:
  
  

  I missed journaling yesterday, but I still had about the same luck as on Week 2 Day 1. Today was a little different though. Actually a lot different.
  
  So, I was trying to just let sounds pass me by but i kept running into the problem of identifying the sounds and associating them with things instead of just letting them be sounds and nothing more. ("Meditation is allowing what is.") I kept hearing cars pass outside and identifying them as cars. I would hear a door close and recognize it as doors closing. I began realizing that I was focusing too much on the sounds and not enough on my breathing. So back to breathing concentration. Once I did that then the sounds once again began to be just sounds. I liken it to when I am really in the middle of a programming project and I am wiring functions together and nothing outside of what I am doing matters. Sometimes I'll be programming in the living room and the TV will be on and it won't matter - because it's just background noise. Maybe that is a bad analogy - I don't know. But something happened when I once again refocused on my breathing:
  
  One problem I had in Week 1 was that my mind would begin to wander on my exhales. Recognizing this I began to focus on my exhales more and make sure I was remaining focused there. Problem was, I focused so hard on my exhale that my mind was recovering from the exhale-focus and my mind switched to start wandering on the inhale. Argh!
  
  Well, today I was actually able to focus on both inhales and exhales. It took a bit of time, but I was doing it. Then my mind did this really weird thing. I could feel it begin to open. Sort of like a sea anemone letting it's most delicate parts being exposed to the elements. I could actually feel it opening! In fact, as it got larger it began to expand at a rapid rate - a rate that quickened as my mind (or consciousness or whatever) grew. It began opening so fast that it actually scared me - I panicked - and my mind slammed shut. Strange sensations of feeling free yet subject, powerful yet vulnerable, all at the same time. I had never felt that combination of feelings before. It was freaky. You know on the Discovery channel, how sea anemones slam shut really quick when a predator is near? That is actually what happened. I actually "saw" it slam shut as I panicked. I inhaled sharply and flinched - like when a part in a movie scares the crap out of you. I tried getting back to that place where my mind opened, but I was so rattled by what just happened I could not settle down again.
  
  This is a little strange and definitely unexpected. I am not sure if it is just that my brain relaxed, or that I actually opened my mind, or if it is a combination of those things. I can't tell. What I can tell you is that it is a place I am going to try and reach again. The brief feeling I got was nice - relaxing and exhilarating at the same time.

  
  
  -ithinkisee
• 
  39

  Meditation, letting the demons in

  by free2beme in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i remember asking an elder once, "what do you think about meditation?

  " he responded that we should not relax and open our minds, as opening our minds can let demons in.

  i thought that seemed like a odd response, and looked it up in the watchtower, and sure enough he gave the societies views on meditation.

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  ithinkisee

  Sirona hit the nail on the head. Freedomloverr has mentioned several times that when she has attended a friend's childbirth it was the most spiritual experience she had ever felt. Imagine being able to experience that weekly or even daily and then going to the Kingdom Hall and hearing the same regurgitated crap you grew up with and the spiritual insincerity of "the friends".
  
  ::Satanus said: "In fact, it seems to me that the main goal of meditation should be to acheive the ability sluff off all things."
  
  I don't know if "sluff off" is the right term. Athletes perform a sort of meditation when in game mode. They "sluff off" outside issues (to use your term) - which could be family, money, whatever - in order to focus on their performance. You will see it with golfers when they take a deep breath before a shot. Basketball players on the freethrow line, field goal kickers in football, penalty shooters in soccer and hockey. It doesn't mean those issues are ignored, they are just put to the side temporarily to gain or regain focus and/or perspective.
  
  Some people - that meditate daily - just use meditation as a conscious discipline in their lives. It's not lazy people either (though I imagine there are some) - many of the greatest minds in business and politics use meditation to help with clarity and focus.
  
  I believe that gaining inner peace by meditation is much more satisfying than requiring an outside impetus like a "holy book" of writings or religious group to give us that peace. The individual relationship with the creator or supernatural is more in line with Jesus teaching of grace anyways.
  
  -ithinkisee
• 
  39

  Meditation, letting the demons in

  by free2beme in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i remember asking an elder once, "what do you think about meditation?

  " he responded that we should not relax and open our minds, as opening our minds can let demons in.

  i thought that seemed like a odd response, and looked it up in the watchtower, and sure enough he gave the societies views on meditation.

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  ithinkisee

  Meditation, yoga, martial arts are all things that strengthen the mind and body. The JWs can't have people with strong minds and secure in themselves alone. This is the "real" reason they ban that stuff.
  
  ::searching4truth said: "I have been really wanting to experiment with meditation but don't know where to start"
  
  Freedomloverr has a great book called "The Buddha's Way" (http://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Way-H-Saddhatissa/dp/0807606359)that is a great intro to Buddhism that focuses on the non-religious aspects of it and on the main forms of Buddhist meditation. It's out of print now and the used ones are VERY expensive (i.e. $50-60). But it is written in regular english and is not cryptic by any means.
  
  I also am in the middle of an eight-week course called 8-minute meditation (http://www.amazon.com/Minute-Meditation-Quiet-Mind-Change/dp/0399529950) that has got stellar reviews from everyone who has tried it - secular business people to spiritual people. It is not cheesy like some "For Dummies" books but is instead very respectful of the practice of meditation. The author doesn't get into the Buddhism part as much so it was kinda helpful for me to read a little on the Buddhist stuff in the first book (The Buddha's Way) - I knew a little more of what the author of the 8-minute book was talking about when he merely touched on points relating to Buddhism. I'm a little anal-retentive that way though.
  
  Those would be the two books I would recommend. It's working for me anyways.
  
  -ithinkisee
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  24

  ITHINKISEE Update: JW hellhounds on my trail ...

  by ithinkisee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some back story:.

  we moved 1500 miles away from our hometown.

  we didn't tell anyone we were done with the jw thing until after we moved - and even then - only basic info.

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  ithinkisee

  95 Stormfront:
  Yep, once I made that mistake of answering a question I couldn't recover.
  
  Buttlight (and others):
  Regarding the baseball cap, I didn't want to give the impression I was familiar with their method of dress because I did not want to give him the chance to get me into any doctrinal things right now. So I didn't mention it. Him knowing that "I" know they are on to us is way more than he wanted to walk away with. He had hoped to leave the anonymous note and then catch Freedomloverr off-guard when she called.
  
  exjdub:
  I agree with you 100% on moving on and not playing their game. I am not going to spend the rest of my life on hairtrigger alert. That means they are dictating the terms of my life STILL and I will not let that happen. I can;t ignore it completely because it was a big part of my life. Also I STILL would like to be able to make a case for my new beliefs when someone is willing to listen. But I am not going to be on "hair trigger" alert anymore.
  
  Everyone else who reminded me that I should have never answered a single question before they identified themselves - I gotcha 100%.
  
  -ithinkisee
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  42

  ITHINKISEE Update: My fleshly JW sister says I am Satanic and dangerous

  by ithinkisee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i went to my dad's house for christmas.

  it was the first christmas we celebrated together since i was 5 years old.

  it was my kid's and [freedomloverr's] very first christmas ever.. .

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  ithinkisee

  Thanks everyone for all the responses. Gave me a lot to think about.
  
  kitten whiskers:
  Christmas was beautiful with my dad. Somewhat bittersweet thinking of all the Xmases we missed and that we are so far away now - basically because of the religion. And yes, we are also saving the 'loving' cards and letters from JW "friends and family" to show the kids when they are older.
  
  SB: "i really like how you kept mentioning "natural affection". nice JW "buzz word" to catch their attention. "
  Yeah, I want her to think of me everytime they mention the term "natural affection" in their studies. I want her to have to pause and think about it.
  
  Scully:
  Your questions are good ones. I will keep these in mind for future conversations.
  
  HappyDad:
  True, no devil horns yet. We're far from the perfect family - we just manage to pull it together pretty well when we're in the company of others. Heheheh.
  
  GoingGoingGone:
  Out of all my family she is by far the MOST unreasonable. EVen my mom is slightly more reasonable than her.
  
  OnlyCurious:
  Not sure about a Chirst-filled Xmas, but I did have a good Christmas and I have no aversion to saying the word "Christmas". One of my aunt's gave me a book by Josh McDowell that attempts to provide "evidence" for Jesus.
  
  ILikeGirls:
  I'll send you a PM. Check your inbox shortly.
  
  Gymbob:
  Hopefully your wife is on to the charade of your mom trying to recruit her?
  
  INgenious:
  Yes, if my response sounds logical and makes sense and is opposite her current belief system, then it must be 'apostate'!
  
  -ithinkisee
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  42

  ITHINKISEE Update: My fleshly JW sister says I am Satanic and dangerous

  by ithinkisee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i went to my dad's house for christmas.

  it was the first christmas we celebrated together since i was 5 years old.

  it was my kid's and [freedomloverr's] very first christmas ever.. .

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  ithinkisee

  TP
  
  We were getting ready to go cut a Xmas tree and I couldn't even tie my boots when I got back to the house because my hands were trembling from anger so bad. I was nauseous and totally pissed off. [Freedomlover] wasn't there yet but I called her later that night about it.
  
  My sister and I have never really gotten along anyways and me leaving has just helped fuse her relationship with the remaining JW relatives more.
  
  -ithinkisee
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  42

  ITHINKISEE Update: My fleshly JW sister says I am Satanic and dangerous

  by ithinkisee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i went to my dad's house for christmas.

  it was the first christmas we celebrated together since i was 5 years old.

  it was my kid's and [freedomloverr's] very first christmas ever.. .

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  ithinkisee

  I went to my dad's house for Christmas. It was the first Christmas we celebrated together since I was 5 years old. It was my kid's and [Freedomloverr's] very first Christmas ever.
  
  One of my sisters lives near my dad and is a hardcore damaged JW and has nothing to do with my dad.
  
  I figured if I didn't call they would accuse me of not even calling when I was in town. So I called [my JW sister] and left a message, and she finally called me back after a couple of hours. I was driving, but I pulled over on the side of the road to talk to her.
  
  

  After some very brief (like 30 seconds) idle chit-chat, she finally says, "I don't know what to make of your phone call."
  
  Me: "What do you mean?"
  
  Her: "Well, are you up here for Christmas?"
  
  Me: "We're up here to visit Dad."
  
  Her: "For Christmas?"
  
  Me: "Well, we will be here DURING Christmas, yes."
  
  (Note: I knew what she was getting at and she wasn't rattling me. I was trying to let her work out her logic to me.)
  
  She says, "Well, I saw the pictures of the girl's Easter Egg hunt so I know you are doing pagan holidays. You are an apostate and have turned your back on the true God you were raised with. I love you, but you have let Satan into your heart."
  
  Me (after snickering - which I didn't mean to do): "[Sis], I know we have differences but I was hoping that natural affection for your family would take over and we could put our differences aside and we could get along for the sake of the kids."
  
  Her: "If you would like to meet me somewhere with the kids I can take them and they can all play together, but I can't be around you because you are dangerous."
  
  Me: "No, it's a package deal. It's either me and the kids, or it's none of us."
  
  Her: "I figured you would say that and that is too bad, because I know the kids would really like to play together. The boys heard the phone message and know their cousins are in town. But since you have turned your back on Jehovah, I cannot have anything to do with you. You are dangerous."
  
  Me: "I'm dangerous? The whole reason I left [our town] quietly is so that family members would not accuse me of trying to destroy their faith. Now, despite that, you are STILL calling me dangerous?"
  
  Her: "Yes, you were raised with the Truth.You were raised to love the true God Jehovah and you dedicated your life to him. But you have basically turned your back on him and because of that, cannot have you in my house. You have completely hurt our entire family by your actions because we love you so much."
  
  Me: "[Sis], what am I supposed to do if I found 100% irrefutable proof that the religion I was raised in is not what it claims to be? Am I supposed to just stick it out because I dedicated myself to it?"
  
  (Note: This is the logic they use to get people from other religions to leave a religion and join the JWs. But apparently that logic ceases to exist if applied to themselves.)
  
  Her (after a pause and some slight stammering): "Well ... yes ... I guess you do. You made a dedication to Jehovah and you have turned your back on him and are now doing pagan things. I love you but I can't associate with you."
  
  Me: "Well, that's unfortunate, but you treated [my wife and kids and me] all like crap when we were supposedly going to meetings and doing everything we were supposed to. So for me it's not as big a loss I guess, but I was hoping the kids could at least hang out together for awhile."
  
  Her: (After a pause) "I know. I know I have problems with cutting people off emotionally. But I do love you - I know I do cut people off emotionally and it is something I am working on. Me even calling you back is showing how much I love you and I was praying that you would have a change of heart. I know I do cut people off emotionally though."
  
  Me: "I know you do too. But being a witness requires that you cut people off emotionally. It's called having no natural affection."
  
  Her: "I do have natural affection. But I cannot be around someone who has turned their back on Jehovah. I need to protect my faith."
  
  Me: "Look, I just wanted to come see your new house and "
  
  Her: "I want you to come see our house too, but the scriptures say that someone that leaves the truth should not even be having a meal with such a person."
  
  Me: "That is not what the scripture says, it says do not eat with any fornicators. I have not fornicated with anyone!"
  
  Her: "That's what it says. Not even a meal."
  
  Me: "Yeah, for fornicators. But I haven't fornicated with anyone."
  
  Her: "You are celebrating pagan holidays so that is fornicating with false religion."
  
  (Note: This is a typical method of almost seamlessly adding to scripture to make it say something it really didn't.)
  
  Her: "With the poor choices you have made over the past year, it has really caused me to re-examine my faith and to really look at what I believe. I have looked at tons of secular books as well as the bible and it has done nothing but reaffirm my faith."
  
  (Note: She didn't even hint at what she looked up - which I have found to be typical. No one ever is willing to tell me.)
  
  Me: "You didn't look hard enough."
  
  Her: "I did look hard enough and I am completely satisfied. I looked at secular books and I looked at the bible and where they differed I go with the bible because the bible is inspired of god."
  
  Me: "So do I. I go with the bible on those differences too."
  
  Her: "Whoa, no, don't even start with me [Ithinkisee]. I'm not gonna have these kinds of apostate conversations with you."
  
  Me: "Like I said, I was just hoping that natural affection for your family would take over and we could just enjoy each other's company as brother and sister and the cousins could all hang out together."
  
  Her: "Jesus said that the truth would divide families."
  
  (Note: I don't recall Jesus saying it would be a bragging point that a religion would be proud of.)
  
  Me: "Every religion uses that line on their members to keep them in! If you go to an ex-Mormon website you will find the exact same lines from Mormons to keep their members in line."
  
  Her: "I don't visit those kinds of sites. Visiting sites like that is dangerous to your faith but apparently you are willing to visit them."
  
  Me: "I said ex-MORMON websites. Not ex-JW websites."
  
  Her: "I know. I said I don't visit those sites."
  
  Me: "An ex-Mormon site? You wouldn't visit an ex-Mormon site?"
  
  Her: "No, because it is dangerous to my faith. I am not going to visit any site that could be a detriment to my faith."
  
  Me: (Pretty much speechless at what I had just heard) "[Sis] , I wish I was recording this so you could hear how ridiculous you sound."
  
  Her: "Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. But you are an apostate [Ithinkisee]. I love you, but you are an apostate and Satan has got a hold of you."
  
  Me: "Well, I'll be sure and tell my kids you said that about their dad."
  
  Her: "I'm sure you will. But remember that the girls are always welcome here because they never dedicated their lives to Jehovah like you did. That is why I can't see you."
  
  (Note: My dad is not "dedicated" to Jehovah, but she'll have nothing to do with him either.)
  
  Me: "And when we head up to Grandma and Grandpa's I'll make sure to tell them that you said I am diabolical and Satanic."
  
  (Our grandparents are not JWs and do not like JWs at all, but have kept their mouths shut for decades just so they can see their grandkids.)
  
  Her: "Yeah, I bet you'll just love going up there and telling them all this."
  
  Me: "I'm not the one making the accusations. I am just speaking the truth."
  
  Her: (After a bit of a pause, her voice shaking) "I ... love ... Grandma and Grandpa SO MUCH and I always have."
  
  Me: "So do I!"
  
  Her: (Her voice turns contemptuous) "YOU DO NOT! You and [my other JW sister] BOTH say that you love them but you don't love them like I love them! You and [my other JW sister] pretty much have NOTHING to do with them and I do stuff with them all the time. You are just using them now to divide the family."
  
  (Note: But remember, she said the truth divides families. I am only speaking the truth. Also, never mind the fact that she lives an hour away and me and my other sister lived 3700 miles away in the complete opposite corner of the U.S. - It has always been hard to visit being that far away.)
  
  Her: ".. and you are lazy! You are just lazy! You couldn't cut it and you didn't want to do all that Jehovah required of you. Requirements that you DEDICATED YOUR LIFE TO! You need to HUMBLE YOURSELF and come back to Jehovah before it's too late!"
  
  (Note: It's lazy to walk away from all you have ever known and start over completely from scratch? That is easy? That is taking the lazy way out?)
  
  Me: "I need to humble myself? I'm not the one that is saying I have absolute truth and all the answers. It is neither faithful, nor discreet, or humble to say that you have ALL THE ANSWERS. That is not humility. That is arrogance. Not even the supposedly evil Christendom has the arrogance to proclaim that. They do not say, 'You have to be a member of our church or you will die!'"
  
  Her: "Of course not, that's because in the churches people just like to have their ears tickled. They don't want to have to do anything."
  
  Me: "[Sis], you are just speaking in buzzwords and lines lifted directly from the Watchtower. None of this sounds like it is coming from your heart."
  
  Her: "Well I believe it with all my heart, so if it sounds like they are just lines that is because those things are in my heart."
  
  [there was more, but I don't remember it all at the moment]
  
  Her: "This conversation has probably already gone on longer than it should have. I love you and I love your girls, and they are always welcome here, but you are not."
  
  Me: "Like I said, I was hoping natural affection for your family would take over. But apparently it won't."
  
  [Some sort of awkward goodbyes and final digs at each other and we hung up.]

  
  
  Fun stuff.
  
  -ithinkisee
• 
  24

  ITHINKISEE Update: JW hellhounds on my trail ...

  by ithinkisee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some back story:.

  we moved 1500 miles away from our hometown.

  we didn't tell anyone we were done with the jw thing until after we moved - and even then - only basic info.

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  ithinkisee

  Carla,
  did you not read the summary? Yes, NO TRESSPASSING signs will go up this weekend.
  
  IP_SEC
  Yeah, we got our cards. But if you have two Milton Henschel types gunning for us (Freedomloverr's stepfather and my mom's husband) they will make enough noise that some new ones would be made or whatever. At the risk of sounding overly dramatic, I don't believe they will stop until they humiliate us with a DF'ing or something. It's really not that humiliating, but right now I prefer they stew in their 'righteous indignation'.
  
  
  
  
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  24

  ITHINKISEE Update: JW hellhounds on my trail ...

  by ithinkisee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some back story:.

  we moved 1500 miles away from our hometown.

  we didn't tell anyone we were done with the jw thing until after we moved - and even then - only basic info.

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  ithinkisee

  Some back story:
  We moved 1500 miles away from our hometown. We didn't tell anyone we were done with the JW thing until after we moved - and even then - only basic info. Just that we aren't going to meetings.
  
  On both sides of the family we have people that will not be happy until we are DF'd, so we have been on the lookout for random elders popping up.
  
  Do I think that they would actually call the local congregations and find an elder to knock on our door? Read on:
  
  

  I was alone working in the living room. My youngest child is asleep sick in bed. There was a knock at the door. An older man in a baseball cap, shirt and tie was standing there.
  
  I opened the door. He seemed surprised someone would answer in the middle of the day. He had a small pink post-it note on his fingers and I could make out the note on it, which was addressed to [FreedomLoverr]. I thought it was someone regarding the fender bender with our car recently - like the insurance guy or something. Still it seemed weird he would show up unannounced.
  
  He asked if [FreedomLoverr] lived here - in a way that suggested he had already talked to her. I said yes. He asked if I was her husband. I said yes. He then said he was a local elder of the Jehovah's Witnesses congregation and was trying to locate [FreedomLoverr]. He said some friends from "up north" had lost track of [my wife] and wanted him to find her.
  
  Side note: They knew where she was. They apparently gave him the address.
  
  He asked if we were JWs or had ever been JWs. I lied and said "No".
  
  He asked if [my wife] ever had been a JW. In a way that looked like I didn't really care, I said, "I dunno ... maybe ... I'm not sure."
  
  He asked what I did for a living. I told him. He then handed me the note that he was going to put on our door. It said, "[FreedomLoverr], Some friends ask me to call you. 555-5555. Bob & Jane".
  
  No mention in the note that they are local JWs or that he is a local elder. No indication of who asked him to contact us. Apparently he was hoping to spring the element of surprise on [FreedomLoverr] when she called.
  
  He asked me if we were interested in the bible or God or anything. I said flatly, "Not at this time ... no."
  
  He asked if he could get my phone number. We locked eyes, I smirked, and said, "Uh .... no."
  
  He reiterated that his number was on the note he gave me and closed with, "We work this area from time to time, so maybe we'll stop back in the future." We each said goodbye. I watched him hop back in the car with the 'group' and he promptly took the baseball cap off.
  
  Nice little trick.
  
  It fooled me.

  SUMMARY
  
  Fact-finding mission completed for brother elder.
  
  I expect to hear more soon. Probably from two elders next time.
  
  

  What I wished I would have said,
  
  "Who asked you to get in touch with us?"
  "If they [our supposed concerned friends] couldn't find us how did you find us?"
  "Why didn't you identify you were Witnesses on the note you were going to leave stuck to our door?"

  
  
  In reality, I didn't want to ask questions that would ultimately lead to him setting me up for more of HIS questions. So I didn't offer much.
  
  I think the elder is concerned that I am onto them and he can't spring the element of surprise on [FreedomLoverr]. Apparently some of the 'concerned friends' feel that [FreedomLoverr] is being manipulated by me and that is the only reason she is not a JW (which insults her and pisses her off to no end ... heheh ...).
  
  I don't for a moment believe that I fooled the elder into thinking we were never Witnesses. I just didn't want to make it easy for him to ask "Organization" questions.
  
  Based on their recent KM articles and CO/Elder/Servant meetings, I will be getting some No Trespassing signs this weekend.