Let me know if you want me to make any edits.
I mostly reposted it in it's orginal form. I added a few bits here and there.
CYP
Check_Your_Premises
JoinedPosts by Check_Your_Premises
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For those with bf or gf who are JW's: How the JW view non JW's
by Check_Your_Premises inthis thread is a quick primer for those who are fairly unfamiliar with the jw, but have found that they are dating someone who is or used to be a jw.
well just to give you a little background on how jw's view the rest of the non-jw world: they basically see you as a bug.
you are worldly and certain to bring their loved one death at the hands of god at armageddon.
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For those with bf or gf who are JW's: How the JW view non JW's
by Check_Your_Premises inthis thread is a quick primer for those who are fairly unfamiliar with the jw, but have found that they are dating someone who is or used to be a jw.
well just to give you a little background on how jw's view the rest of the non-jw world: they basically see you as a bug.
you are worldly and certain to bring their loved one death at the hands of god at armageddon.
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Check_Your_Premises
This thread is a quick primer for those who are fairly unfamiliar with the JW, but have found that they are dating someone who is or used to be a JW.
Well just to give you a little background on how JW's view the rest of the non-jw world: They basically see you as a bug. You are worldly and certain to bring their loved one death at the hands of God at Armageddon. JW's are forbidden to have a gf, worldy or not.
See, the JW think that the only way to survive Jehovah's wrath at armageddon is to be a jw.
So just take that one simple truth and work out the implications about how his/her JW loved ones (mom, brother, father, and even your bf/gf) feel about you.
On the other hand, if they are dating a worldly person like you he/she is obviously taking a step away from the org by having you as a bf/gf. Your bf/gf likely has some doubts, but they have been brainwashed since birth. So you need to understand that when you talk to them and poke holes in their logic, you are likely butting against years of indoctrination. So here are a few tips for talking to ANYONE who is under the influence of mind control (sounds spooky and glamorous but actually it is quite simple, subtle, and very powerful)
1. Never criticize the org. You can run down other religions ALL DAY. If you are hoping to help them see a flaw in the JW, the best way to do this is point out how messed up some OTHER religion is for doing the same thing. Don't close the loop by saying, "Hey, the JW do this also!" They will (if they want to) make the connection on their own. Play dumb.
2. You are only a student in the eyes of a jw, a potential recruit. You are never a teacher of them. This is your angle though. By being genuinely interested in them as a person, you can ask them questions that force them to THINK.
3. Always be very friendly and humble when you ask questions. The second you have an agenda, or sound like you are trying to win an argument, they will run away.
4. Always try to build his trust. If they don't trust you, and think you are a threat to them surviving armageddon, they will run away. If you are genuinely interested, they can and will talk to you.
5. Talk about religion only if you have to. Mostly just try to make them feel like a real person.
Some questions you could ask (only if they trust you!):
1. How sure are you that this is the right religion? ON a scale from 1 to 10?
2. Isn't it funny how many religions say they are the only right one, and all other ones are bad. I mean really, how could you know if yours is the right one for sure. Especially if you are raised in it and that is all you know?
3. If it wasn't the right religion would you want to know? If you found out it wasn't, would you leave?
4. Have you ever tried to see if there is anything that proves the stuff they say is wrong? Have you ever looked on the internet? I mean if it is the "truth" what do you have to be afraid of? And besides, don't you want to know what people might say about the jw, so you could know how to respond?
Required Reading:
Releasing the Bonds and Combatting Cult Mind Control, both by Steven Hassan. (Letting your loved one see you with this will likely cause them to lose trust in you!)
My thoughts on the prospects of dating a JW:
Again, if they are dating you they are stepping away from the JW for some reason. You could probably plant some seeds in this person, and who knows, maybe they will find some freedom someday. Some gf/bf of jw have actually helped them leave. It really depends on how much time you want to spend. Don't get some "I must save them" thing going. It isn't healthy. There is only one Savior, and it aint you! You could waste your life trying to save someone but the truth is we can never control people or cause them to be what we want. The only people who are saved from these kind of groups are those who want to be.
So don't underestimate how much work and how painful something like this is. You will spend countless hours praying and fretting and scouring the internet for the one thing that might open their eyes. You will watch this person you love and respect be led around by the nose, and talk like a robot. Any agreement that you hope for will have no compromise if it goes against the teachings of the org. You will always be second place. It is quite possible that your loved one will never leave.
If you got this person to dig you then you can probably get someone else to dig you as well. You shouldn't have much trouble then in finding some much better and less complicated prospects out there. Hang out here, ask a few questions, and folks here will give you some good seeds to plant. Whatever you do don't sleep with this person. Sorry if that is a little personal. But if you (or they) get pregnant, expect all their years of phobias and indoctrination to come screaming back now that they have a precious child to save from armageddon! This is actually one of the most common causes for the "unbelieving mate" (aka a person married to a JW) situation. If you do get pregnant, you will spend years here trying to get ideas how to open their mind. Or you will spend years knocking on doors telling people about the "truth".
Be careful. Life doesnt' suffer fools.
CYP (aka "Mr. The Purpose of My Life is to Serve as an Example for Others of What Not to Do")
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A concerted effort during a watchtower study?
by mkr32208 inwas thinking about this today!
what we need to come up with is something like crazies 586/7 list from watchtower sources showing the kings list.
then next time they have a prophecy watchtower study we could all go to different halls where no one would know us and have a prepared answer typed up with watchtowerese language something like;.
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Check_Your_Premises
You'd probably want to mention "ajwrb.com loudly mentioning that it stands for associated jw for reform on the blood doctrine, and even bcri which is a group of jw who dissassociated for conscience reasons"
Keep repeating the names until they start in with "thank you brother, thank you. That is enough brother"
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A concerted effort during a watchtower study?
by mkr32208 inwas thinking about this today!
what we need to come up with is something like crazies 586/7 list from watchtower sources showing the kings list.
then next time they have a prophecy watchtower study we could all go to different halls where no one would know us and have a prepared answer typed up with watchtowerese language something like;.
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Check_Your_Premises
ADVERTISE! ADVERTISE! ADVERTISE!
Actually that is a pretty good idea about mentioning the names of web sites during those stay away from the internet talks.
You could say, "Yes there are just so many apostate web sites out there. There is freeminds.org, there is silentlambs.org, oh yeah, and there is even this one that uses the name jehovah's witness to trick people into thinking it is a real jehovah's witness site. It is jehovahs DASH witness.com. Yes, the apostate will sink to the lowest levels to sully Jehovah's good name."
A few would get what you are doing. I actually would kind of like to try this, but being a ubm, I think it would get me tagged even harder then I am right now. My wife ALWAYS gets a call if she misses a meeting. She ALWAYS gets called to see if she is going out in service. If they think she might miss a meeting for some legitimate reason, they call BEFORE to make sure she attends.
Maybe when I travel on business...
CYP
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What exactly is not allowed
by Jdarley inok, my bf is witness, and i am studying to become baptized.
but he and i have sexual control issues that we are trying to work on.
(we cant keep our hands off eachother and control our desires).
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Check_Your_Premises
Oh boy.
I guess the "extra" concern I have for my daughters stems from the obvious biological consequences of premarital sex.
Plus, I know how men think. My daughter doesn't. Sex (generally) has different meaning to women and men. My daughter will likely associate it with a deep and meaningful level of commitment and intimacy. Many of her possible suitors will associate it with scoring points, and release of tension. Unfortunately, women like all people tend to think that everyone else thinks like them. I have found that many young women have experienced a great deal of heartache because they mistakenly applied and hoped that their assumptions about the sex act would be shared by their partner.
So thanks for the Archie Bunker check and all, but the girl is trying to find out if she is going to get into trouble here. Let's stay on topic. And by the way, I do plan to chain my son to the porch, since you are concerned about fairness.
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What exactly is not allowed
by Jdarley inok, my bf is witness, and i am studying to become baptized.
but he and i have sexual control issues that we are trying to work on.
(we cant keep our hands off eachother and control our desires).
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Check_Your_Premises
Hey JD.
I would concur with serendip's advice.
I have two daughters.
One movie scene I liked was in the Godfather. In one scene, when Michael was dating his future wife in old world Sicily he would walk with her. Then in the distance, they were followed by her female family members. The idea was to give some privacy, which is necessary in courtship, but also not leave the young couple at the mercy of their carnal desires.
You can tell I have two daughters. I also tell my oldest she should let me pick her husband for her. For some reason she thinks that is dumb. I think if we compare my choice and hers 20 years after, we will both agree that mine was the better choice.
Sorry. I have daughters.
As to your question of what is or is not sin. Well I guess I would refer you to Matthew 5. The point Jesus is making there is that even if you have a list of what is and isn't allowed, you can still sin. The point is that sin is not the physical violation of a rule, it is a matter of falling short in your heart. Loving and desiring the wrong things. That is simply our nature. If we only needed to follow rules, we would only need a teacher. But our sin is in our nature. We need more then a teacher. We need a saviour.
That is also why salvation can never come from following a list of rules. Salvation can only come through faith in Christ. If you could earn your salvation by following rules, Christ wouldn't have needed to be sacrificed. That is from Galatians. I can't remember which verses.
God's law is written in your heart. Pray and ask Him if you are sinning. He is the one you need to be concerned about. Not some group of men.
CYP
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I am new to the forum!! Help!
by Jdarley ini have come to this website/forum looking for friendship and guidance along with a bit of support.
i hope here i can learn more about jehovah.
my family is soo against it, and i hope i can gain more knowledge here, for i am thirsty for it.
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Check_Your_Premises
Also 100% of my family looks at it like a cult, and dont want me involved.
Why do they think it is a cult? What is a cult anyway? I mean, before you could say the jw is a cult, you would have to know what a cult is.
For instance, my sister was in Scientology. Now that is a cult. They don't even believe in Jehovah! Here is a neat link that talks about them and why they are a cult. The first part is boring, but there is a checklist below that explains some of the reasons they are a cult.
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I am new to the forum!! Help!
by Jdarley ini have come to this website/forum looking for friendship and guidance along with a bit of support.
i hope here i can learn more about jehovah.
my family is soo against it, and i hope i can gain more knowledge here, for i am thirsty for it.
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Check_Your_Premises
Hey JD! Welcome to the forum.
It is always so nice and encouraging to see young ones who yearn for and find Jehovah on their own. Sorry about your family situation. Maybe you could tell them about this forum. That way they could ask questions and get to understand what you are doing and why it is so important to you.
There are some people who aren't jw here, or who used to be. Some folks will tell you to avoid such people because they are a danger to your faith.
I guess that never made much sense to me. I figure if I have the truth, it should be able to stand up to any questions or scrutiny. Plus I want to know what people who don't believe in the truth think. That way I can find out the best ways to argue against them.
So please stick around and let us get to know you better.
CYP
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NBC targets cults with brainwashing drama
by Dogpatch ini know rick ross and this should be interesting.
amy manchester is a christian and part of the project, and asks for prayer for this show.
i hope they don't make it look like deprogramming is the "way to do it.
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Check_Your_Premises
Hope it goes well, and I hope they keep it reasonably accurate.
THe big problem with drama is it has to be dramatic. I could see this being really cartoony. If they show JW's as raving lunatics for dramatic effect, then it will probably do more harm then good.
On the other hand, if it really shows the subtlety of mind control as well as objective criteria for determining whether a cult is a cult based on how they behave, it could be really powerful and beneficial.
I can't imagine that someone with RR anti-cult experience wouldn't consult it to the effect of helping vast numbers of people leave these groups and regain control over their lives.
CYP
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All right cut the crap.... why are we fighting over the Big News?
by Check_Your_Premises inif the big news is legit, someone will file suit and win.. if it is the big snooze one of the above will not happen.
nothing we do or say here will bear on the outcome of the above.
if you think it is the big news, by all means promote it as such.
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Check_Your_Premises
I don't have a problem with the news. I do, however, have a problem with the sensationalizing of news for the purpose of manipulating people to some action. Particularly when the news itself is withheld while the masses are manipulated into an unreasonable frenzy.
Even if the Big News is completely worthless, I don't believe the person who allegedly "sensationalized" and "manipulated" did so with that intention.
I think it was only sensationalized if it is in fact worthless. If it has teeth then I don't think it was hyped ENOUGH!
If it is worthless, the person who did the sensationalizing most certainly did so from what she thought was a well informed opinion.
I certainly wouldn't want to discourage others from coming up with new and clever ways to hurt the WT by slandering the character of a person who is, at worst, legally naive.
The thread that finally prompted me to write this thread was titled, "Can we trust Barbara Anderson?". Was that really fair or necessary or appropriate. If this is the Big Snooze, then that just means we got more work to do. "A" for effort Barbara!
CYP