Posts by Check_Your

I spotted that one on an Amazon search one time. If you recommend it I will get it! Screw Oprah! I subscribe to the UBM book club! I absolutely love your last recommendation, although I think (at least from what I read so far) McLaren left the myth of certainty fairly untouched... other than to acknowledge the difficult balance of knowledge and faith.

CYP

21

Certainty, truth, and the JW's

by Check_Your_Premises in

pardon me while i think out loud.

this is kind of half baked.

to know truth is perhaps the most illusive and yet most important things.

Check_Your_Premises

My head hurts.

One aspect I would like to explore is the idea in Christianity that you need to beleive something is true to have salvation.

The JW share this, but with the addendum that you need to believe that the jw are the right religion as well.

If the jw or the Christianity aren't "true", would the jw or Christian want to know it? And by admitting that, does that mean they are willing to renounce their faith?

Discuss. (if the topic is at all interesting)

CYP

21

Certainty, truth, and the JW's

by Check_Your_Premises in

pardon me while i think out loud.

this is kind of half baked.

to know truth is perhaps the most illusive and yet most important things.

Check_Your_Premises

Pardon me while I think out loud. This is kind of half baked. If you see what I am trying to get at, and can say it better, please do so.

To know truth is perhaps the most illusive and yet most important things. Many of us have experienced the painful consequences of living under false assumptions. Unfortunately we are very limited in our ability to perceive and understand. Over thousands of years people have found that the best way to arrive at truth is to seek information, process that information using logic, validate that information and logic by seeking new data and ideas to test and validate against, and subjecting our conclusions to the scrutiny of our peers. The genuine truth seeker realizes this process will never end. We will never know all truth. The truth we know will always need to be refined in light of new facts.

As limited as we are and this process is, it still has had remarkeable success. It has brought us from cave dwelling, hunter-gatherers cowering from predators, to a complete domination of the planet. We have mapped the human genome. We have even "slipped the surly bonds of earth" to set foot on the moon. The power of truth and knowledge are unmistakeable.

One key flaw in this process is us. The simple fact is that two people can process the same information, use the identical system of logic (or so they think), and arrive at completely different conclusions. Human beings are simply incapable of being perfectly objective. This is the one thing that no person can deny, and is a key aspect of our fallibility. No matter how smart or knowledgeable we are, no person is immune from the need for self-delusion. It is the one common denominator we all share, and is implicit in all compromise. No person can ever be completely certain that they aren't biased in some hidden way to a certain conclusion.

So when we realize how difficult it is for us to understand and perceive reality, when we further realize how difficult it is for us to detach ourselves from what we want that reality to be, how completely obnoxious and laughable we find the jw who claims an absolute certainty in their beliefs, doctrine, and claim on "the truth".

Rather than constantly seeking new facts or ideas to refine their concept of truth, they build a wall and only dwell on the data or ideas that support their faith. They label any information or reasoning that challenges their beleifs as "apostate". They completely ignore the idea that their might be things they don't yet know, which they aren't even aware of, that might lead them to change their opinions.

But most importantly they refuse to admit that no matter how certain they are in the completeness of their knowledge and ideas, they themselves might be skewing the data to reach the conclusion they require. And when they claim absolute, complete certainty that they are right, you are wrong, they are actually saying that only you, and never they can be biased. They are denying that one common denominator we all share in our search for truth. They are denying their own humanity.

"doubts complete faith, and keep it from become fanaticism" -some smart Rabbi MJ quoted to me

CYP

31

It REALLY does hurt

by inaneframe in

jw
friends

where to begin?

new here... i was raised jehovah's witness and am still confused by the experience.

heh, deep down i think i still feel guilty for even coming here.

Check_Your_Premises

A good book for you to read might be Combatting Cult Mind Control.

It might help you to understand what a cult actually is. That way you can decide for yourself if the jw are a cult. If you decide it is a cult, It might even give you some answers to why such a smart guy like your father could join.

CYP

52

UBMs - why do we love JWs??

by Super_Becka in

i think there's been a thread on this before, but i figured i'd ask again.. for all of the ubms out there, why is it that we love witnesses??

what is it about them that we find so attractive??

why are we putting ourselves through this mess when we know full-well that there are lots of non-jws out there who would be better for us??.

Check_Your_Premises

(((cyp)))

Thanks WP.

I realized that is probably the worst thing I ever said about anybody. It rips me inside to say it. But it is true.

CYP

52

UBMs - why do we love JWs??

by Super_Becka in

i think there's been a thread on this before, but i figured i'd ask again.. for all of the ubms out there, why is it that we love witnesses??

what is it about them that we find so attractive??

why are we putting ourselves through this mess when we know full-well that there are lots of non-jws out there who would be better for us??.

Check_Your_Premises

Oh yea...

CYP

52

UBMs - why do we love JWs??

by Super_Becka in

i think there's been a thread on this before, but i figured i'd ask again.. for all of the ubms out there, why is it that we love witnesses??

what is it about them that we find so attractive??

why are we putting ourselves through this mess when we know full-well that there are lots of non-jws out there who would be better for us??.

Check_Your_Premises

It's amazing how fast things change.

Ain't that the truth.

Have you ever done this?

One of my new ones is imagining the conversation I will have someday where I have to apologize to my children for the incredibly awful choice I made in picking their mother.

CYP

52

UBMs - why do we love JWs??

by Super_Becka in

i think there's been a thread on this before, but i figured i'd ask again.. for all of the ubms out there, why is it that we love witnesses??

what is it about them that we find so attractive??

why are we putting ourselves through this mess when we know full-well that there are lots of non-jws out there who would be better for us??.

Check_Your_Premises

I don't want to live out my life wondering, "What if...??".

I love you Becka. I remember when you showed up here. I remember so many "dating a jw's" that have showed up here. One or two have been successful. Some get dumped. Most fade away, apparantly heeding the "run" advice or getting themselves a great deal on service bag.

I gotta say though; I sure wish I had your problems.

I really pray you never have mine.

I am glad you have laid out what you will commit and what you will accept. I hope you keep them. I have a warning for you based on some very costly personal experience.

Beware of commitment and the need for consistency.

Once you commit something, you have a natural human need to stay with it, long after it is obvious that you should cut your losses. This is the same dynamic that keeps a gambler at a table long after he has spent the mortgage.... "I've lost so much already!!! This next dollar could get it all back!!!"

I once spent years making sure I didn't have to say "what if" over a woman, that when I look back on it, really didn't even appeal to me at all. But I had been so dedicated to her at one point. To not make totally sure would have completely dishonored that previous commitment. What I wouldn't give for that time and energy back. Don't kid yourself that this is some thing you can just quit anytime.

I am sure this guy has some great qualities. But he also would let your kids die if they needed blood. You can go easy on yourself by reminding yourself that it is very unlikely to happen. But that is irrelevant. The fact is that is the choice he would make, and you can't deny all that implies about him. He would be a threat to your children Becka. Anything else he is, is irrelevant.

Sorry to dump my problems on you. But keep down this road and you will sound like me.

Take care of yourself Becka. Life doesn't suffer fools.

CYP

52

UBMs - why do we love JWs??

by Super_Becka in

i think there's been a thread on this before, but i figured i'd ask again.. for all of the ubms out there, why is it that we love witnesses??

what is it about them that we find so attractive??

why are we putting ourselves through this mess when we know full-well that there are lots of non-jws out there who would be better for us??.

Check_Your_Premises

Why do all the rest of my fellow UBMs out there stand by their JWs?? Why put up with the hassle??

I do it because I am married with children. If I left my wife, some jag-off jw would be banging my wife, living in my house, driving my car, and raising my kids.

I do feel a sense of duty to my wife. She is in a self-imposed prison of sorts. The closest analogy I can think of is an abusive spouse. I have a responsibility to help her obtain a different perspective, one that allows her to see the possibility of freedom if she is able to choose it.

The question is how much more of my life do I commit to that effort? At some point, don't we have to accept a person wanting to drown, and not let them pull us down with them? I often picture myself hopping on a brand new Harley as I walk out of my kids graduation, leaving my wife behind in a befuddled cloud of dust. I often think of reducing my contribution to our marriage to mere requirements and duties, devoid of any affection and intimacy. In any romantic relationship I think we should never give more than we receive.

How much more of your life are you going to pour out Becka? Don't get me wrong, I think you have an opportunity to help this fella. The fact that he is willing to defy "mother" is a promising sign. But is this really healthy for you?

A very common pitfall for the single, young person (and one of Ben Stein's "Ways to ruin your life") is to run around "dating people with a lot of personal problems, and then thinking you can change them by nagging". I just want you to be honest about your motivations.

Wouldn't it be an incredible validation of your womanly powers, and your remarkeable mind if you were able to help a person such as your boyfriend? How much will you sacrifice to acheive such validation? If you seek such validation, why? Could it be that you simply have an unmet need that could be better fulfilled in a less life-consuming venture?

Sorry. Asking annoying questions is a ubm speciality. But I love you, and that means I want what is in your best interests. If this isn't in your best interests, I don't want it for you.

CYP

Check_Your_Premises

Posts by Check_Your_Premises