Posts by bennyk

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

The vast amount of data does indeed prove a twenty gap between secular and biblical chronology. Do the maths!

Josephus provides the basis for doing the maths at Apion 1:20. Please read it and do the maths for yourself.

Judah was not in servitude to Babylon until the reign of Jehoiakim who was made a vassal king by Nebuchadnezzer and this was not in 609 BCE.
There is nothing in the Bible record that proves Josiah's vassalage to Babylon for in last stage of his reign he was in conflict with Egypt not Babylon. You need to get the history right as poor history means poor chronology.

Hey, I feel slighted. When the Watch Tower Society conjectures something contrary to established secular history and gives it a veneer of respectability by citing scriptures which do not prove the claim, you accept that without hesitation. When I do the same [viz. "Judah was already in servitude under Babylonian hegemony following the defeat of Assyria at Haran in 609 B.C.E., where Babylon became the legitimate succesor to the Assyrian Empire. The fact that Josiah was already a vassal of Babylon explains why Josiah attempted to check King Necho's advance to Carchemish in 605 B.C.E. (2 Kings 23:29; Chr. 35:20-22). "], you do not accept it. You are learning!!! Unless you'll be more willing to accept unsubstantiated (and indeed, untenable) guesses if I promulgate erroneous teachings and false prophecies for many decades.(?)

Give some consideration to your own words: "You need to get the history right as poor history means poor chronology."

Edit to add: Don't take it personally. See you Tuesday.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

Scholar writes:

I cannot [cite] a reputable scholar in support of 607 BCE except in the case of Dr Rolf Furuli who is a Sebior Lecture in Semitic Studies, University of Oslo, Norway.

Yes; I am aware of no modern scholars who agree with Furuli's conjecture.

The interpretationof 607 BCE as proposed by 'celebrated 'WT scholars does not require the rejection of vast amounts of data but rather assigning far greater importance and priority to the Bible which provides sufficient data in order to construct a reliable and accurate biblical chronology.

Yet the WTS interpretation does reject the vast historical data which establish the fall of Jerusalem twenty years later than the WTS teaches.

The rest of secular data is of great interest to those scholars and when given due consideration provides strongsupport for the accuracy of 607 BCE inasmuch as it provides evidence of a mere 'twenty year' gap.

The vast historical data provide no evidence of the WTS conjectured "twenty year gap" -- the data refute the myth.

The biblical account of the 'seventy years serves as a corrective to such secular data thus one arrives at 607 BCE.

The biblical account does nothing of the kind. The WTS conjecture denies the secular data.

So whatever methodology one uses, 607 BCE ie embraced by both the biblical and secuklar data.

The above is obvious hyperbole! As far as you know, and as admitted in your post, with the exception of Furuli, all reputable modern scholars reject 607 B.C.E. as the date for the fall of Jerusalem.

The interpretation that the seventy years from 609 -539 BCE is impossible because the seventy years had not ended with the Fall of Babylon and also had not begun in 609 BCE because Judah was not exiled to Babylon at that time and the land was not devastated at that time.

Neither Jer. 25:11f nor Jer. 29:10 (reading "for Babylon") state that the nation of Judah would be exiled to Babylon for seventy years.

Judah was already in servitude under Babylonian hegemony following the defeat of Assyria at Haran in 609 B.C.E., where Babylon became the legitimate succesor to the Assyrian Empire. The fact that Josiah was already a vassal of Babylon explains why Josiah attempted to check King Necho's advance to Carchemish in 605 B.C.E. (2 Kings 23:29; Chr. 35:20-22).

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

bennyk
Post 330
You need to read all of the Josephus' references to the seventy years of which there are several for these show quite clearly that the seventy years in the opinion of Josephus ran from the Fall until the Return.

I will willingly consider whatever references to the seventy years that you may cite from Josephus. Hitherto, I have only noted Antiquities 11:1:1, Apion 1:19, and Apion 1:21.

Further, this period was of exile, servitude and desolation of the land, city and temple. These collective references nicely support the understanding of the seventy years according to the Bible and published by the 'celebrated WT scholars.

Apion 1:21 reads: These accounts agree with the true histories in our books; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth ["nineteenth" in other copies] year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity forfifty years; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus its foundations were laid, and it was finished again in the second year of Darius.

This account from Josephus does not "nicely support the understanding of the seventy years according to the Bible and published by the 'celebrated WT scholars" -- it refutes it.

I shall look forward to seeing your response, but do not know if I shall be back tomorrow.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

JCanon quotes "scholar" and comments:

So now you are a linguist in claiming that in Jeremiah 25:11, 12 that the adverbial 'seventy years' modifies only the phrase 'the servitude' and does not modify the phrase' the devastation'. This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so. I would argue that all of what is said in verse 11 was included in the seventy years which was the land being devastated and servitude to Babylon. That is what the text plainly reads.
This is absolutely an opinion and it is not academically viable when you factor in Josephus who clearly notes that the servitude of the poor ones last deported off the land were the ones who served seventy years. Now ordinarily you could claim that there were several 70-year periods, one for the nations that began at the beginning of the NB empire. But Josephus specifically links the 70 years served by the poor people deported last with Jeremiah's prophecy! That means Jeremiah directly contradicts any opinions regarding the 70-year period of "servitude" by Jeremiah that is not connected with the last deportation.
IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus1 which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity
JC
[highlighting by bennyk]

I see nothing in Josephus' account quoted above which substantiates the claim highlighted above. What is recorded at Antiq. 11:1:1 does not require the complete depopulation of Judea, only an exile of Jews to Babylon(of some -- not necessarily all, and not necessarily the last) Jews.

It does NOT read something like: ' which was the seventieth from the day that the last of our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon', or: 'which was the seventieth from the day that our people were last removed out of their own land into Babylon'.

Several deportations to Babylon occurred at various times during the seventy years, but the SERVITUDE of Judea as a nation (those poor people!!!) need not begin with any of the deportations as recorded in the Bible.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

This period of servitude-desolation and exile wwas brought during the 18th On Nebuchadnezzer's reign and the 11 th of the last king of Judah, Zedekiah withthe destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE.

You wrote to me earlier:

This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so.

I would like to suggest that you take a page from your own book. Since you style yourself a scholar, perhaps you would be willing to cite a reputable modern scholar to establish your claim that Jerusalem fell in 607 B.C.E.

The WTS interpretation requires the rejection of vast amounts of data indicating that Jerusalem did NOT fall in 607 B.C.E. There is no compelling reason for accepting the WTS doctrine in the face of an interpretation which violates neither the Scriptures nor secular history. The interpretation that the "seventy years" run from 609-539 B.C.E. violates neither the Scriptures, nor secular history. Therefore, the WTS teaching is to be rejected.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so. I would argue that all of what is said in verse 11 was included in the seventy years which was the land being devastated and servitude to Babylon. That is what the text plainly reads.

Yes, I had understood that you were (not yet) in agreement. My previous post demonstrated the claim; to wit:

the seventy years of servitude began before the desolation of Jerusalem. Cf. Jer. 27:1,6-8 [note past perfect tense in vs 6] and 28:1,2,11 [where the servitude is already under way]. If the Land were indeed "devastated" for seventy years following the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent Exile, the 'seventy years servitude' would necessarily have ended roughly two decades before the End of the neo-Babylonian Empire.

When read in the context of chapters 27 and 28 the text in Jer. 25:11f reads other than you argue.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

It is likely "SCHOLAR" did not intend it so, but it is funny:

bennyk
Post 326
You are very sadly mistaken because you are paying close attention to what the text actually says.

Jeremiah 25:11,12 indicates that Judah and the nations would be in servitude to Babylon for a period of seventy years and that the land of Judah would also be devastated for seventy years. as in verse 11.

I am not mistaken -- sadly, happily, or otherwise. In verse eleven, the adverbial "seventy years" modifies only the phrase regarding the 'servitude'; it does NOT modify the phrase regarding the devastation. We know this because the seventy years of servitude began before the desolation of Jerusalem. Cf. Jer. 27:1,6-8 [note past perfect tense in vs 6] and 28:1,2,11 [where the servitude is already under way]. If the Land were indeed "devastated" for seventy years following the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent Exile, the 'seventy years servitude' would necessarily have ended roughly two decades before the End of the neo-Babylonian Empire: Thus, the Watch Tower Society teaching is refuted by both the Scriptures and secular history.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

There being multiple 'seventy years' is impossible for this only confuses the subjects and using other dates such as 605 BCE or 609 BCE are also impossible for the beginning of the period is also impossible. Further, the ending of the period in 539 BCE is also sadly impossible.

Actually, you are very mistaken. Jeremiah 25:11b,12a states: "[T]hese nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon... " As the nations ceased their servitude in 539, the ending of the period in 539 B.C.E. is not only NOT "impossible" -- it is necessary.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

JCanon writes:

Thanks for your reply Addagirl...
when it so happened that our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus king of Persia.
The temple destruction in 586 BCE is confirmed above. Cyrus released the Jews in 537 BCE. At this point Jerusalem had been desolate for 50 years.
This is a direct contradictio. This says the CITY WAS DESOLATE for an interval of 70 years, until Cyrus, which means that the 70 years ended when Cyrus came to the throne.

No. It is not a contradiction: The text does NOT state that the city was desolate "for" an interval of 70 years -- "during" does not mean "for". The accounts in Josephus indicate that the temple (and Jerusalem) lay desolate FIFTY years (Apion 1:21), which fifty years were a part of the SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE (Antiquities 11:1:1). Apion 1:19 does NOT contradict this; it confirms that the fifty year's period of desolation occurred "during the interval of seventy years". The prophecies in Jeremiah do not indicate seventy years of "desolation", nor of "deportation" or 'captivity' (whether of a specific group, or viewed in the aggregate), but of servitude, i.e. "vassalage". Note that the prophecies as recorded in Jeremiah do not even require deportation and exile at all: pls cf. Jer. 27:7,8,11-13,17; 38:17,18.

The SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE (Antiquities 11:1:1) run from 609 B.C.E. (following the Assyrian Empire's crushing defeat at Haran and the subsequent vassalage of Judea to Babylon) until 539 B.C.E. (when Babylon itself was defeated). The FIFTY years of DESOLATION for the Temple (Apion 1:21) run from 587 B.C.E. (when Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed) until 537 B.C.E. (when the foundations of the Temple were laid [second year of Cyrus]). The several deportations occurred at various times during the seventy years, but the SERVITUDE of Judea as a nation need not begin with any of the deportations as recorded in the Bible.

35

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-20-08 WT Study (Presence)

by blondie in

jw
friends

"what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system things?"--matt.

q) 6 what does revelation chapter 12 help us to understand about christ's presence?

q) 8, 9. who would recognize the sign of christs presence and understand its meaning?.

bennyk

Thanks for your commentary, Blondie.

Thus, it was felt that in the modern-day fulfillment, Jesus was referring to the wicked "generation" of unbelievers who would see both the features that would characterize "the conclusion of the system of things" (syn.te'lei.a) and the system's end (te'los).

I have always loved how the Watch Tower Society switches to the passive voice when discussing the now-rejected teachings of the past -- almost as though some third party were somehow responsible, and the Society were merely an unwitting, innocent bystander. Why can't they write something a bit more direct (and honest): e.g. "We previously taught unequivocally in our exclusive, official capacity as the sole channel between God and men a doctrine which we are now changing and which you are henceforth forbidden to believe. Believe the new teaching! Or else! (Until the next time we change it.)"