Posts by bennyk

56

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

by V in

just another interesting comment i have received on the watchtower comments youtube channel.

feel free to deconstruct.... .

what is wrong with you?

bennyk

Unfortunately, V's e-friend seems not to have understood that (if the WTS' current doctrine be correct) the Society promulgated false doctrine (in God's name, no less) for the past seventy years...

8

Albert Schroeder Life Story - interesting read

by still_in74 in

i thought this was an interesting article, lots of rutherford and knorr quotes.

life of albert schroeder in the org.

i remember meeting albert schroeder about 15 years ago.

bennyk

We began our pioneer service before we were baptized because at that time it was not clearly understood whether those with the earthly hope needed to be baptized or not. However, after I was baptized in Vandercook Lake, Michigan, July 24, 1932, it became evident that my hope had changed to that of an anointed one, which was confirmed by the ‘witness of the spirit.’—Romans 8:16.

Hmmm.

If memory serves, the WTS claimed in print that they didn't begin to baptize "Other Sheep" until 1934...

6

The anointed.

by alexb123 in

my friend was telling me that the generation of anointed alive in 1914 now includes their children.

i thought that the anointed were not meant to have sex.

am i right or wrong?

bennyk

(Revelation is supposed to be totally symbolic.)

Except, of course, for the number 144 000.

57

Will Women Eventually Start Being Used As Servants?

by White Dove in

as the men in the congregations suffer from burnout and quit helping out as ms and elders, do you think the situation of shrinkage will become so desperate that the wts will be forced to start using women in positions of authority?

they have a huge commodity that they are refusing to use.

that makes no sense at all.

bennyk

All they would have to do to square this with their affiliates/followers is put an article in the sacred Watchtower giving new light regarding Romans 16:1, viz. "I recommend to YOU Phoebe our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cenchreae..."

6

Translators needed, German, Italian, Portuguese, or Spanish

by Fatfreek in

if you can understand the written word in german, italian, portuguese, or spanish -- you can help.

oh, you will also need to have access to a copy of insight on the scriptures (it).. insight on the scriptures was first released in english, at the divine justice conventions.

the actual release of that two volume set began on friday, june 17, 1988. .

bennyk

According to the printed Einsichten (German edition: vol. one copywrite 1990, vol. two copywrite 1992), the Sodomites et al will NOT be resurrected. The article on "repentance" (i.e. Reue) doesn't mention them; the sentence you offered in English is re-written.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

Dear "Scholar",

My earlier posts 325 & 326 confirm that I was NOT seriously suggesting Josiah was alive in 605 B.C.E. Post 333 was an attempt to show you that a scriptural reference to people and places can be twisted to "confirm" nonsense. How about some of these:

***w22 11/15 p.357 [bracketed material in original]
The Protestant Reformation, which split professing Christians into two hostile parts, was foretold through the prophet Daniel in these words: "Now when they [true Christians of the dark ages] shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many [professedly Protestant rulers and others] shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them [Protestant leaders] of understanding shall fall, to try them [the true ones], and to purge thenl lot the evil ones], and to make them white, even to the time of the end [1799]."--Daniel 11 : 34, 35.

The Harp Of God p.230
398 The most important thing to which all the prophecies point and for which the apostles looked forward has been the second coming of the Lord. It is described by the Prophet as a blessed time. Daniel then says: “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days”. (Daniel 12: 12) The watchers here, without question, are those who were instructed by the Lord to watch for his return. This date, therefore, when understood, would certainly fix the time when the Lord is due at his second appearing. Applying the same rule, then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A. D. brings us to A. D. 1874, at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord’s second presence is due.

*** w22 5/15 CHRONOLOGY
WE HAVE no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. [...]
Using this same measuring line, beginning with the entry of the children of Israel into Canaan, and counting the full 70 cycles of 50 years each, as clearly indicated by Jehovah's sending of the Jews into Babylon for the full 70 years, it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee, There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914.

*** w22 6/15 SEVENTY YEARS' DESOLATION (PART II)
The chronology of present truth might be a mere happening if it were not for the repetitions in the two great cycles of 1845 and 2520 years, which take it out of the realm of chance and into that of certainty. If there were only one or two corresponding dates in these cycles, they might possibly be mere coincidences, but where the agreements of dates and events come by the dozens, they cannot possibly be by chance, but must be by the design or plan of the only personal Being capable of such a plan -- Jehovah himself; and the chronology itself must be right. In the passages of the Great Pyramid of Gizeh the agreement of One Or two measurements with the present truth chronology might be accidental, but the correspondency of dozens of measurements proves that the same God designed both pyramid and plan-and at the same time proves the correctness of the chronology.
The agreement of the chronology with certain measurements of the Tabernacle and the Temple of Ezekiel further stamps the chronology as true.
It is on the basis of such and so many correspondencies -- in accordance with the soundest laws known to science -- that we affirm that, Scripturally, scientifically, and historically, present-truth chronology is correct beyond a doubt. Its reliability has been abundantly confirmed by the dates and events of 1874, 1914, and 1918. Present-truth chronology is a secure basis on which the consecrated child of God may endeavor to search out things to come. -- 1 Peter 1:11-12; John 16:13.

***w23 4/1 p.106
There was never at any time any intimation to the Pilgrim brethren that they should cease talking about 1925.
Anyone who has made the statement that such an instruction was sent out has made it without any authority or excuse or cause.
Our thought is, that 1925 is definiteIy settled by the Scriptures, marking the end of the typical jubilees.

Their previous chronology having been nonsense, why believe the following:

*** w90 3/15 p. 15 Cooperating With the Governing Body Today ***
4 In 1918 the enthroned King Jesus Christ found a small group of Christians who had previously left Christendom’s churches and were busy caring for their Master’s earthly interests. After refining them as with fire, Jesus gave his slaves increased authority in 1919. (Malachi 3:1-4; Luke 19:16-19) He appointed them “over all his belongings.”—Luke 12:42-44.

Now then, scholar, you did write:

I have spent many decades studying this subject and have read numerous commentaries and scholarly journals on the subject ...

I have done the maths and considerd all of the references to the seventy years by Josephus and his summation of matters agrees totally with that of the 'celebrated' WT scholars. As I said; Poor history equals poor chronology so one cannot do accurate chronology unless one gets the history right.

Now, then: Please explain how Josephus' summation of matters in Apion 1:20 agrees with that of 'celebrated' WT scholars.

Sincerely, bennyk

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

The vast amount of data does indeed prove a twenty gap between secular and biblical chronology. Do the maths!

Josephus provides the basis for doing the maths at Apion 1:20. Please read it and do the maths for yourself.

Judah was not in servitude to Babylon until the reign of Jehoiakim who was made a vassal king by Nebuchadnezzer and this was not in 609 BCE.
There is nothing in the Bible record that proves Josiah's vassalage to Babylon for in last stage of his reign he was in conflict with Egypt not Babylon. You need to get the history right as poor history means poor chronology.

Hey, I feel slighted. When the Watch Tower Society conjectures something contrary to established secular history and gives it a veneer of respectability by citing scriptures which do not prove the claim, you accept that without hesitation. When I do the same [viz. "Judah was already in servitude under Babylonian hegemony following the defeat of Assyria at Haran in 609 B.C.E., where Babylon became the legitimate succesor to the Assyrian Empire. The fact that Josiah was already a vassal of Babylon explains why Josiah attempted to check King Necho's advance to Carchemish in 605 B.C.E. (2 Kings 23:29; Chr. 35:20-22). "], you do not accept it. You are learning!!! Unless you'll be more willing to accept unsubstantiated (and indeed, untenable) guesses if I promulgate erroneous teachings and false prophecies for many decades.(?)

Give some consideration to your own words: "You need to get the history right as poor history means poor chronology."

Edit to add: Don't take it personally. See you Tuesday.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

Scholar writes:

I cannot [cite] a reputable scholar in support of 607 BCE except in the case of Dr Rolf Furuli who is a Sebior Lecture in Semitic Studies, University of Oslo, Norway.

Yes; I am aware of no modern scholars who agree with Furuli's conjecture.

The interpretationof 607 BCE as proposed by 'celebrated 'WT scholars does not require the rejection of vast amounts of data but rather assigning far greater importance and priority to the Bible which provides sufficient data in order to construct a reliable and accurate biblical chronology.

Yet the WTS interpretation does reject the vast historical data which establish the fall of Jerusalem twenty years later than the WTS teaches.

The rest of secular data is of great interest to those scholars and when given due consideration provides strongsupport for the accuracy of 607 BCE inasmuch as it provides evidence of a mere 'twenty year' gap.

The vast historical data provide no evidence of the WTS conjectured "twenty year gap" -- the data refute the myth.

The biblical account of the 'seventy years serves as a corrective to such secular data thus one arrives at 607 BCE.

The biblical account does nothing of the kind. The WTS conjecture denies the secular data.

So whatever methodology one uses, 607 BCE ie embraced by both the biblical and secuklar data.

The above is obvious hyperbole! As far as you know, and as admitted in your post, with the exception of Furuli, all reputable modern scholars reject 607 B.C.E. as the date for the fall of Jerusalem.

The interpretation that the seventy years from 609 -539 BCE is impossible because the seventy years had not ended with the Fall of Babylon and also had not begun in 609 BCE because Judah was not exiled to Babylon at that time and the land was not devastated at that time.

Neither Jer. 25:11f nor Jer. 29:10 (reading "for Babylon") state that the nation of Judah would be exiled to Babylon for seventy years.

Judah was already in servitude under Babylonian hegemony following the defeat of Assyria at Haran in 609 B.C.E., where Babylon became the legitimate succesor to the Assyrian Empire. The fact that Josiah was already a vassal of Babylon explains why Josiah attempted to check King Necho's advance to Carchemish in 605 B.C.E. (2 Kings 23:29; Chr. 35:20-22).

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

bennyk
Post 330
You need to read all of the Josephus' references to the seventy years of which there are several for these show quite clearly that the seventy years in the opinion of Josephus ran from the Fall until the Return.

I will willingly consider whatever references to the seventy years that you may cite from Josephus. Hitherto, I have only noted Antiquities 11:1:1, Apion 1:19, and Apion 1:21.

Further, this period was of exile, servitude and desolation of the land, city and temple. These collective references nicely support the understanding of the seventy years according to the Bible and published by the 'celebrated WT scholars.

Apion 1:21 reads: These accounts agree with the true histories in our books; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth ["nineteenth" in other copies] year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity forfifty years; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus its foundations were laid, and it was finished again in the second year of Darius.

This account from Josephus does not "nicely support the understanding of the seventy years according to the Bible and published by the 'celebrated WT scholars" -- it refutes it.

I shall look forward to seeing your response, but do not know if I shall be back tomorrow.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

JCanon quotes "scholar" and comments:

So now you are a linguist in claiming that in Jeremiah 25:11, 12 that the adverbial 'seventy years' modifies only the phrase 'the servitude' and does not modify the phrase' the devastation'. This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so. I would argue that all of what is said in verse 11 was included in the seventy years which was the land being devastated and servitude to Babylon. That is what the text plainly reads.
This is absolutely an opinion and it is not academically viable when you factor in Josephus who clearly notes that the servitude of the poor ones last deported off the land were the ones who served seventy years. Now ordinarily you could claim that there were several 70-year periods, one for the nations that began at the beginning of the NB empire. But Josephus specifically links the 70 years served by the poor people deported last with Jeremiah's prophecy! That means Jeremiah directly contradicts any opinions regarding the 70-year period of "servitude" by Jeremiah that is not connected with the last deportation.
IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus1 which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity
JC
[highlighting by bennyk]

I see nothing in Josephus' account quoted above which substantiates the claim highlighted above. What is recorded at Antiq. 11:1:1 does not require the complete depopulation of Judea, only an exile of Jews to Babylon(of some -- not necessarily all, and not necessarily the last) Jews.

It does NOT read something like: ' which was the seventieth from the day that the last of our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon', or: 'which was the seventieth from the day that our people were last removed out of their own land into Babylon'.

Several deportations to Babylon occurred at various times during the seventy years, but the SERVITUDE of Judea as a nation (those poor people!!!) need not begin with any of the deportations as recorded in the Bible.