Study: Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients
By MALCOLM RITTER
ap
NEW YORK (AP) - Does praying for a sick person's recovery do any good? In the largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.
And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications. The researchers could only guess why.
Several scientists questioned the concept of the study. Science "is not designed to study the supernatural," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center.
The researchers who tested the power of prayer emphasized that their $2.4 million study could not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study could look only for effects from the specific prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
The highly anticipated study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, said Dr. Charles Bethea, a co-author and cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect."
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School, co-principal investigator of the study, agreed. "We cannot come to a conclusion, except to say that by this study design, with its limitations, this is what we found."
The researchers also said they didn't know why patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of complications than patients who only knew that such prayers were a possibility.
Maybe they became anxious by the knowledge that they'd been selected for prayers, Bethea said: "Did the patients think, 'I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?"'
The researchers said family and friends shouldn't be discouraged from telling a patient about their plans to pray for a good recovery.
Experts called it the largest and best-designed study ever to test the medical effects of intercessory prayers - praying on behalf of someone else. That's different from studying the effect of a person's prayers and spiritual practices on his or her own health; many studies of that have shown a positive effect.
The new study followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers. It was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion, and one of the participating hospitals. It will appear in Tuesday's issue of the American Heart Journal.
The research team tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients - their identities known only by first name and first initial of the last name.
The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.
The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But among patients who did receive prayers, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Paul Kurtz, professor emeritus of philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a blunt response when asked why he thought the study found no effect of prayer.
"Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."
He added that while he tries to keep an open mind, he's seen no good evidence for such an effect in past studies. The new work, he said, "gives added emphasis to those who have been skeptical."
Koenig, of Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him.
"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Muslim scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted."
Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"
Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, said he believes intercessory prayer can influence medical outcomes, but that science is not equipped to explore it.
"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said.
As for the new study, he said, "I don't think ... it's going to stop people praying for the sick."
SeymourButts
JoinedPosts by SeymourButts
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Study: Prayer causes complications for heart patients
by SeymourButts instudy: praying won't affect heart patients
by malcolm ritter ap
new york (ap) - does praying for a sick person's recovery do any good?
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SeymourButts
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G.B. members hand picked DIRECTLY by Jehovah
by SeymourButts ini was in the process of looking up an article, when i came across this little gem.
jehovah appoints the "governing body" himself, directly!
not only that, but the "organization" is under "the immediate direction of jehovah god himself" .
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SeymourButts
There is also, as stated by the Society....NO room for error in "Jehovahs" organization. So, not only are the GB hand picked by Jehovah, Jesus, or whomever strikes their fancy but "God" would "NOT allow errors to be preached under the cloak of religion". I would think that this might put a little hitch in the argument that they are "just imperfect men"....imperfect or not...God would "not allow errors." Watchtower 10/1/61...Prophesying with the Loyal Organization 18 God’s holy spirit when poured out upon the remnant of spiritual Israel causes or induces only the prophesying or preaching of the truth, God’s own truth. Jesus once spoke of it as “the spirit of the truth.” (John 15:26) The spirit of the God of truth can be expected to cause a purification of the things that are preached by God’s approved loyal organization. His spirit would not allow for anyone to prophesy falsehood, the preaching of lies and errors under the cloak of religion. Such a cleansing as carried on inside the organization of God’s restored loyal remnant and of their loyal companions is foretold in the prophecy of Zechariah 13:2-6. In verses two and three we read
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How can one id a real Christian?
by BlackSwan of Memphis inplease back up with scriptural evidence.. .
meagan.
ps thanks in advance
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SeymourButts
Yup, clueless, antagonistic tripe. You don't know me, my beliefs or my morality, yet you attempt to sit in judgement from the sidelines.
I fail to see how your name calling trumps the words of Jesus. Clueless? Since I used the Bible itself, are you saying the bible is clueless as well, or just those words of Jesus that you don't like? Don't call me clueless....I only pointed out the words of Jesus. Call it "judgement from the sidelines" if you wish, but diving in and out of the Bible for what is palatable is a form of selective morality.
they make the gate too high, as an excuse for not entering themselves
....but of course, this wasn't some sort of judgement...noooooo "Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven." "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of law to fail"--Luke 16:17, see also Matt. 5:18-19
May ask how you would feel if a never-been-a-jw told you how you feel and what you believe as either a JW or an exJW?
Did I tell you what you believe, or did I make comments regarding one segment of it? A segment that clearly went against the words of Jesus. -
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G.B. members hand picked DIRECTLY by Jehovah
by SeymourButts ini was in the process of looking up an article, when i came across this little gem.
jehovah appoints the "governing body" himself, directly!
not only that, but the "organization" is under "the immediate direction of jehovah god himself" .
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SeymourButts
I was in the process of looking up an article, when I came across this little gem. Jehovah appoints the "Governing body" himself, directly! Not only that, but the "Organization" is under "the immediate direction of Jehovah God himself"
Watchtower Questions From Readers 6/1/65 This strengthening of theocratic controls continued over a period of twenty years, from 1918 to 1938, and corresponds to the twenty-year building program of Solomon, in which time he completed Jehovah’s temple, his own house, the porch of judgment and the House of the Forest of Lebanon or the armory. In 1938 Jehovah revealed this correspondency to his servants and it was published in The Watchtower in a two-part article entitled “Organization.” This appeared in the issues of June 1 and 15 and proved conclusively that Jehovah’s organization must henceforth be guided and directed by Jehovah’s spirit through the visible governing body made up of those servants whom Jehovah himself would appoint. The concluding paragraph in this series stated: “Jehovah’s theocratic government is now in full control of the people of God.” but it is all a part of the advancement of Jehovah’s theocratically controlled organization under the immediate direction of Jehovah God himself. Therefore, these revisions and changes are themselves fully theocratic, so they do not alter in any way the fully theocratic structure of the organization
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How can one id a real Christian?
by BlackSwan of Memphis inplease back up with scriptural evidence.. .
meagan.
ps thanks in advance
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SeymourButts
Sorry buddy, but if your post is anything to go by it would appear that you haven't a clue.
More dancing around the fact that you disregard what is unpleasing in the bible. There doesn't seem to be a problem with diving in an out of the Bible to encourage others to "turn the other cheek, " yet consider it irrelevant when the same book might actually require something tangible like dollars out of the pocket or extra effort. Yet, you call me clueless...sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Don't get mad when someone uses your own Bible to point out the hypocrisy.
The "secret" of Christianity is that you don't have to jump a gate - it swings open for those who wish it. Even the wretched refuse, in human terms, can enter freely.
Uh, yeah....enter or die...nice "secret" Someone that loves you doesn't threaten you with torment for not believing.
What do you know of my personal morality?
Popping in and out of the supposed inspired word of God to pick and choose what makes one feel good while neglecting and rationalizing away the murderous barbarism of the same "moral guide" can very well be described as selective morality. If you like it, you expound on it, if you don't, you dismiss it as irrelevant.
Apples and pears. The WTS have been entirely hypocritical and have gone against the tenets of what they hold to be "true". You might have to point out where I've done similar...
Nice Watchtowerism!
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How can one id a real Christian?
by BlackSwan of Memphis inplease back up with scriptural evidence.. .
meagan.
ps thanks in advance
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SeymourButts
Ironically, the ones who jump up and down, about what a Christian should be or shouldn't be, often aren't... ..they make the gate too high, as an excuse for not entering themselves, then apply that irrelevant standard to others.
I didn't set the height of the gate; the Bible accomplished that on its own. The fact that you choose a path of selective morality would rather demonstrate a lowering of that "gate" to a more convenient and comfortable height. Anything deemed inconvenient is either rationalized away or ignored altogether, even though these mere "formalities" and "irrelevant standards" are no less binding than any other currently accepted moral code of the New Testament. "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"--Matt. 5:18-19 RSV It would be blatantly hypocrisy to use the history of the Watchtower as a tool against them while denying this same examination to the core beliefs of what one currently holds to be "truth." If in fact, the Bible is the inspired word of God, then no single passage is any more valid than the remaining. Choosing only what is satisfying and pleasing while rejecting that which is self-denying or objectionable doesn't demonstrate much faith in the claim that it truly is the word of God. The denigration of God's "irrelevant standard" only serves to further demonstrate my point. The inane idea that the Bible, with all of its barbarism and absurdity, is somehow the word of a loving and merciful God is beyond the realm of rational thought and reason. A God that relies upon threats of eternal torment and suffering to keep the subjects in line, while at the same time offering rewards to those that carried out his murderous habits, is not a God deserving of worship even by the lowest of creatures. The journey towards true inner peace can only begin from within. No one can tell you what is truly important to you in your life. This is something you must discern on your own and can only be found through deep examination of ones inner self. If one needs a book to dictate that murder is wrong or to explain that loving ones fellow man is upright and proper, they have other issues to deal with. Christians do not hold a copyright on love and good morals and in fact go out of their way to forcefully push their beliefs into every segment of society. Those that resist are automatically labeled as evil and hateful, only deserving of a violent death at the hand of their "loving" God. I really doubt you could find a "true Christian" that would even think twice about voting for a politician that claimed to be an atheist or Muslim. Non-judgmental?...doesn't appear that way. Good morals are just that....good morals. Pitch the ancient mythology of tent dwelling sheep herders and love life now. Live now, love now. There is no greater satisfaction than helping one that is less fortunate so that they too may live life's journey with a smile. Don't look at or consider this life as some sort of stepping stone to a mythical afterlife that was promised by superstitious control freaks. Go out and enjoy life now, cherish every minute of it. It's the only life you have, don't waste it.
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How can one id a real Christian?
by BlackSwan of Memphis inplease back up with scriptural evidence.. .
meagan.
ps thanks in advance
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SeymourButts
Ahh yes, just as was expected. Avoidance of the issue. The question was regarding the identifying of a "true christian". There are many many clear statements in the bible that are attributed to Jesus regarding what it takes. Whether love or any other quality is present is not the issue. One can not pick and choose what scriptures he wishs to apply and then in the same breath proclaim himself as a true follower of christ. This is not a matter of applying what is comfortable and convenient. Paul does NOT trump the words of Jesus, especially if one claims jesus to be god. When you choose to interpret scripture and apply it as you see fit, you are also at the same time, giving validation to the Watchtower and their "interpretation". You interpret and disregard as you see fit.....no different than the Society.
Jesus gave direct commands....the "God" of the old testament gave direct commands. If one can interpret it and twist it to fit their own ideals, then there is no complaint against the Society for doing the same. If it is a matter of interpretation, then any one claim is as good as the next. Maybe we have struck a nerve with those that claim to be christian, yet only choose to follow a small portion of his teachings.
One "interpretation" is no better than the next. Either you follow the bible, or you don't. Don't make excuses for not following the words of the "great teacher".
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Get your Mohammed tshirt!
by jstalin in.
lol... a company is making tshirts of the evil mohammed cartoons now:.
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SeymourButts
Not only did I order one, but I WILL wear it to work as soon as I get it....and yes,...I work with many Muslims. I get dirty looks when I wear my IDF shirts.....this one should really ruffle some feathers.
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How can one id a real Christian?
by BlackSwan of Memphis inplease back up with scriptural evidence.. .
meagan.
ps thanks in advance
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SeymourButts
Sorry, but those are not my words,...they are from they bible and are very clear. But then again as I said....rationalizing away what costs us personally is the norm. We could also go even further and bring up many many other subjects and teachings which are so conveniently ignored. What gives one the right to pick and choose....to apply as he sees fit? It is not some sort of scriptural smorgasboard where one fills their plate with only what is appealing and palatable.
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How can one id a real Christian?
by BlackSwan of Memphis inplease back up with scriptural evidence.. .
meagan.
ps thanks in advance
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SeymourButts
The bible also makes it quite clear that a "true" follower would have to be as poor as dirt. "...none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up everything he has" (Luke 14:33); "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor and you will have riches in heaven" (Matt. 19:21); "Sell your possessions and give alms" (Luke 12:33); "But give what is in your cups and plates to the poor, and everything will be clean for you" (Luke 11:41); "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt,.... But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.... for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matt. 6:19-21); "How hardly shall they that have riches enter to the kingdom of God" (Mark 10:23); "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matt. 19:23-24); A certain ruler told Jesus that he had obeyed all the commandments from his youth up. But, Jesus said, "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22, Mark 10:21), Paul said, "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ" (Phil. 3:8 RSV) But, of course, Christians have a tendency to overlook this and try to rationalize it away. But, but, but,...and then comes the lame excuse as to why they feel they can overlook these scriptures. These statements are very clear. It is not enough to just avoid wealth, but one is to actively seek to rid themselves of whatever possessions they may gain. A true follower of Jesus can not divorce someone, .... "So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder"(Matt. 19:6, Mark 10:9)
Neither can they marry someone who is divorced, "whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery" (Matt. 5:32, 19:9, Luke 16:18).
When we investigate, we are able to find one exception to the former. If the spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible: "Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery" (Matt. 5:32).
The bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is an adulterer: "...whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her" (Mark 10:11, Luke 16:18), which applies to women as well--Mark 10:12.
According to Christ's teachings: one can never obtain a divorce, except from an adulterous spouse; one can never marry a divorced person, and one who obtains a divorce and marries another is committing adultery. How many so-called Christians will try and wiggle out of that one? It seems that for the most part, Christians only follow what does not personally cost them, only what is convenient.