Thanks for yet another great post Norm!
When I started reading your posts last year they hurt (if you understand what I mean: "How could I be that blind for so many years...?!"). Now I'm glad you're posting these eye-openers!
cecil
Posts by cecil
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13Damage control
by Norm insince brooklyn finally allowed the 1914 generation to die in 1995, the distributing apparatus of the multinational printing organization has been starting to slow down.. service is down, the numbers of pioneers are decreasing, the number of baptized show an alarming drop and people are leaving in their thousands.. after many decades of incessant harping on how jehovah, jesus and the bible had guaranteed that the end would be over before the 1914 generation was dead, the witnesses had the only thing that kept many of them going, ripped out from under their noses.
suddenly jehovah hadnt promised any such thing in the awake!
suddenly jesus had never been talking about the length of a generation, as usual the watchtower had never said any such thing, someone had speculated about the generation.
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cecil
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24
did you talk to the elders?
by Moxy inon your way out, did you have the 'talk' with an elder?
(or elders?
) the kind of, 'excuse me, brother only-elder-who-i-really-trust, i've been having serious doubts about such-and-such and i would really appreciate it if you could help me see if i'm missing something, i sincerely want to know...'.
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cecil
Moxy
Yes it's helpful - in a way that I couldn't even imagine before. A couple of years ago my attitude was: - Please help me, I must be missing something here, because I don't see things the same way any longer. There is something wrong WITH ME!
When you dare to see things without the WT-filter - because the elders' (read: WT-representatives') 'answers' equal a big round ZERO in content!!!* - you sudddenly ask yourself: - Could it be, that it's not me who has the big problem here or is missing something of great importance, but something's completely wrong with what THE WT is teaching...?! Could it be that simple?
That's the point in my life, when I started having sleepless nights...!cecil
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24
did you talk to the elders?
by Moxy inon your way out, did you have the 'talk' with an elder?
(or elders?
) the kind of, 'excuse me, brother only-elder-who-i-really-trust, i've been having serious doubts about such-and-such and i would really appreciate it if you could help me see if i'm missing something, i sincerely want to know...'.
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cecil
...interesting topic Moxy.
In spite of my problems and doubts, initially I had ´no intention of leaving. I started asking my questions - and got no answers. The few answers I got, had nothing to do with my questions, but were simply attempts to make me forget about my problems and doubts and just enjoy to be a part of The Truth... and you know the rest of the melody. These 'answers' - and my unanswered questions - made me wonder, and started my 'leaving-procedure'.
So in way, yes - I am having the talk with the elders on my way out...
cecil
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6
New District Convention Program
by messenger inwatchtower convention.
2001 teachers of gods word district convention theocratic simplification.
this year in response to increasing light it has been decided to simplify the convention arrangement for the benefit of the other sheep and further the use of dedicated funds for the glorious spreading of the good news of gods kingdom.
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cecil
messenger, you wrote:
Food: Food should limited to dried fruit and nuts along with warm Shasta cola. Remember no snacking during the program, this would show disrespect for “theocratic arrangement”.
How about snacking betel-nuts? Would that be disrespect for "theocratic arrangements" too...?!
* http://www.gnosticgarden.com/betel.htmcecil
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cecil
"What I think of another witness marrying a nonwitness..?! Well - let me think for a second, let me think... Where did I put that WT Publications Index...???"
good point stephenw20
>>Law,
When an elder is a guest at a wedding where a witness marries a nonwitness - he disqualifies himself as an elder immediately! Now you now, what witnesses are supposed to think of that...
Sorry for being so 'direct' in my answer. Just recognized that you are new to the board... (Welcome!!! btw). Is there any special reason for your question? Or are you just curious?
cecil
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13
You Can See Me Dance The Polka Tra La La La.
by Englishman inwhen spencer traceys genial dr. jekyll started to whistle you can see me dance the polka we all knew what was about to happen.
sure enough, within a minute or so, the hairs were growing on the back of his hands as the metamorphosis into the odious mr. hyde took effect.. so, im wondering, what exactly are the warning signs that signify that a normally pleasant human being is about to turn into that most wearisome of creatures, youve guessed it, the self-righteous condemning and critical jw?.
i ask because of the impending visit of my auntie lou.
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cecil
Englishman.
Yep, that’s what I think happens. And that’s what I’ve seen/experienced myself!
In the "Independent thinking"-thread
* http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=4040&site=3
I told stephenw20 about something, that has been happening to me for a couple of months. And it is IMO an example of how long-time JW slip into “automatic transmission” when confronted with issues they don’t like:I decided to share what I had read/learned about WT-chronology with two of my best friends. (I talked to to them pesonally - they had nothing to fear from each other, as they did not know I had been telling both of them. And it was ME, who brought up the issue... a person they have been calling their best friend for years...) Both long time JW, long-time elders and in any sense the kind of brothers you would expect to be able to do independant / reasonable thinking and to be mature enough to discuss the consequences...
Well - i was shocked that they seemed to be unable or at least completely unwilling to discuss anything. Time and time again both of them told me, that if there should be any change in the WT-chronology, the WT itself (the FDS) would tell us about it. When I tried to explain them, that this was, where I had my problem ... they warned me of such thinking and it became clear to me that each of them was too afraid of even thinking about the consequences of what we were talking about.
It is not that they did not know enough about the topic. They simply chose to ignore any of my arguments and told that they would not read anything - even if I personally had written it down, after having done research for nearly 9 years... no 'apostate-stuff'...
On many other topics - of course nothing that questioned the WT - we have had some interesting arguments. But at these occasions it was impossible to get through to them - if you understand what I mean.
And that's why I think it is the case, that many, many JW are AFRAID of independant thinking. But of course: Maybe that's the result of so many years of learning: AVOID independant thinking...
Englishman, that’s the way I see it – and it’s frustrating. Nothing I can do about the "Defense-Mode" or the "automatic transmission"...cecil
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13
You Can See Me Dance The Polka Tra La La La.
by Englishman inwhen spencer traceys genial dr. jekyll started to whistle you can see me dance the polka we all knew what was about to happen.
sure enough, within a minute or so, the hairs were growing on the back of his hands as the metamorphosis into the odious mr. hyde took effect.. so, im wondering, what exactly are the warning signs that signify that a normally pleasant human being is about to turn into that most wearisome of creatures, youve guessed it, the self-righteous condemning and critical jw?.
i ask because of the impending visit of my auntie lou.
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cecil
Hi "Englander".
The 'sleeper'-thing sounds interesting. This turning into a
self-righteous condemning and critical JW
could IMO be triggered by certain words or certain experiences.One of the situations could be, when they should start independant thinking and simply can't get themselves to do that. They are afraid of independant thinking. Like a computer-system, that is about to break down or get lost in a loop - for them its "back to mama". Suddenly they talk in a way that is completely different from what they normally would do. They use different words and change into JW self-defense-mode. Sometimes triggered by a simple question you have asked. You may be their best friend, but if you ask the wrong question - bad luck...
Another situation (trigger) coulde be something they experience. They talk to/meet 'worldly' persons, or maybe even df'ed or da'ed family-members. Suddenly they realize, that these people are quite normal, nice human beings. Loving mothers, fathers, daughters and sons. But stop! They are not supposed to be that way. If you're df'ed or da'ed you probably will have to hear that you are
deserving of death because you have turned your back on Jehovah!
And if you simply happen to be a non-JW, you will hear that if you do not become a JW in time, you'll die in Armageddon.The wording may be different from case to case. 'Modern' JW's may express themselves different from your Auntie Lou - but they are still 'triggered' to behave in a certain way.
cecil
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11
Only 144.000 christians faithful since Jesus?!
by cecil inthe wording in the subject-line is taken from a bible research-thread, started by mds on feb 3, 2000 (see link below).
it dealt with the wts as the faithful and discreet slave.
the reason why i take this part of the original thread to the main-forum is, that it brought back to my mind some questions, that i have never been able to answer.
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cecil
The wording in the subject-line is taken from a “Bible Research”-thread, started by MDS on Feb 3, 2000 (see link below). It dealt with the WTS as the “faithful and discreet slave”. The reason why I take this part of the original thread to the main-forum is, that it brought back to my mind some questions, that I have never been able to answer. And I hope that you may be able to help me!
It’s a question regarding the 144.000 anointed-teaching. MDS’ post made me think: If there were literally hundreds of thousands of christians, that died in the “ten persecutions” during emperor Nero’s time, were they not of the anointed? If the historical records show, that there have been several hundreds of thousands christians through the years, that were willing to die for their faith, the WT-claim, that the “high calling” was closed in 1935 – as the total of 144.000 anointed since Jesus’ and the apostles days was reached by then - is proved ad absurdum.
Unless of course – unless, as the WTS claims, these christians were not true christians or real anointed christians. But how could anyone determine that today? And how could the first christians "limit" their preaching and baptizing so the total of 144.000 would not be reached until 1935 C.E. (BTW - they did not even know about the 144.000-limit until the Revelation was presented to John at the end of the first century)
Besides the WT-chronology, that has been proven to build on warm air only, this – as I see it as a JW - is a serious problem for the WT-teaching of the 144.000 (and here especially the close of the high calling in 1935).
Does anybody know sources that can tell the circa-numbers of true / professed christians that have lived and died for their faith in the first 3 centuries?
Is that a problem for others than me? Tell me how you solved that problem or why it maybe is/was no problem for you!
cecil
PS: Sorry if I bring up an "old" issue, that has been discussed on the board before. But I’m only halfway in digging up the gold that has been posted on this board through the months by you “odtimers”...
So, please be patient, if we newbies find something that for us is, hmm – should I call it "new light"...?!PPS: You can read the complete original thread at this link:
* http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=2505&site=3edited for a typing-error in the subject-line
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14
Hair today, gone tomorrow...
by Carmel ini note since i've been on various jw chat groups that having a beard in some places is a df'ing offense.
i don't recall this being the case when i was a dubby.
when did it become such and is there something written in the witchtower declaring it so?.
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cecil
Now here comes another beard-story from Denmark:
Brothers have beards, they become appointed as ms and elders with beards, they are allowed to give public talks with beards, and they are even allowed to give talks at curcuit-assemblies.
But district-assemblies?! That's something different. Brothers with a beard are not allowed to give talks at district assemblies - they simply won't be appointed for the talks. BUT A MOUSTACHE IS STILL OKAY THERE TOO - brothers with moustaches are allowed to be part of the program, give talks...
And that's no joke!
cecil
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71
My Identity!
by qwerty inthat got you to read this!
what country are you from?.
i find it encouraging to see where different posters are from in the world, especially for me, if you are from the uk or europe.
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cecil
hello to everybody from denmark
cecil