Posts by rambaldi

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

presuming THEY have the only true religion and can do no wrong, then maybe more people would be forgiving of their wrongdoing.

In light of what I wrote (which apparently people don't get the point), Jehovah's Witnesses are not claiming that they can do no wrong. They are claiming that through faith, good works, focusing on loving Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, instruction from the scriptures, good associatians, etc, doing wrong can be avoided.

Any wrongdoing should be forgiven by people because that is part of Christianity, to work things out and to continue to do God's will, not look at individual. Remember the scripture says to imitiate their faith, not their conduct or hold their conduct against them.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

They criticise everybody else's religion on the grounds of what the menbers do who are not faithful.
What's good for the goose...

You miss the point.

The point is that Jehovah puts before his people the choice to choose life or choose malediction.

That choice is not put before those who are not his people. Although they can choose life rather than malediction but choosing

to become one of Jehovah's people, but until then there is no choice.

We criticize other religions not because some are unfaithful, we criticize them because they choose the malediction. Or because their lack of choice to be on God's side places them in malediction.

Also because if the whole number of these "everbody else's religions" would as a whole do God's will there would be these wars and reports of wars, etc.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

Although a chosen people the jews were not seen by God as his organisation, scripture please?&

Hmm. Is this a question or a statement? Are you asking for a scripture to support the statement?

See my above message to this other person.

Jehovah and Christ was and is only concerned with people as individuals. ; Show me when he used an organisation rather than individuals as prophets or messengers, scriptures please. ;

Israel was his organization. I quoted Exodus 19:5,6 but I think I have to again.

" And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. 6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.”

Ok, now since he was speaking to this whole nation, this plural YOU. It was addressed to the people as a whole. But they proved unfaithful so he sent individual prophets and messengers to correct them. These prophets and messengers carried his message so Jehovah cared for them and action against those prophets and messengers as in 2 Cor 36 was action against Jehovah himself. Since that organization failed to listen, he rejected the nation of fleshly Israel and then granted the nation of Spiritual Israel the blessings of Exodus 19.

But there were no more Jehovah's Witnesses after the Messiah. ; JWs were the natural Jews. ; THAT is why the name Jehovah does not appear at all in any ancient Christian Greek manuscript. ;

I find that a false statemetn. In Christian times there were and are Jehovah's Witnesses as Paul said " All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, ". If Jehovah's people in the past were his Witnesses as Isaiah stated, then things would be set straight by all things Jehovah's people his nation again being his Witnesses. The purpose of their being called so in Isaiah 43 did not change when the identity changed from fleshly to spiritual.

Of course the name Jehovah does not appear in ancient Greek manuscripts. Jehovah is an English transliteration of the divine name so a language that was created long after the scriptures were written would not contain an English transliteration.

THAT is why Jesus did NOT say at Acts 1:8 anything about being Jehovah's witnesses, or even his father's witnesses - "And then YOU will be MY witnesses....and indeed to the earth's remotest end." ;
Consistency at 1 Peter 4:14-16 ;- "But if any of you should suffer for being a CHRISTIAN, then there is no shame in bearing THIS NAME....If you are insulted for bearing CHRIST'S NAME, blessed are you for on you rests the spirit of God.

Acts 1:8 and your application is a misunderstanding. Jesus was not speaking in the sense that his Father called the Israelites his Witnesses in Isaiah. You can not just associate words. The contexts are totally different (like comparing John 8:58 to Ex 3:14, examine the contexts). Jesus' context was about telling a world that had not heard of him, about him. Jehovah's context was to a nation that knew him or should have known him.

As to Peter. (Thanks for reminding me of vs " 15 However, let none of YOU suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a busybody in

other people’s matters.) So he is saying that Christians could suffer from being those things. Sure they had Christians that were murderers, thieves, evildoers back then. That goes with my theme. Those actions did not invalidate the congregations.

Vs 14-16 that you highlight does not invalidate Jehovah's Witnesses in the first century. Again, their purpose was to preach about this new guy that was going around and healing and teaching new things. There would be people who would call them cults, there would be people of this Jewish religion who believed knew who Jehovah was but they needed to know who this Christ was. So that was their purpose, but it did not invalid their being Jehovah's Witnesses.

Despite the JW attempt to insert Jehovah's personal name for the natural jews 237 times in the New Testament where it does not belong,

If it does not belong then what would Jesus and the other apostles and writers do when they quoted from the Hebrew scriptures that contained God's name as Jehovah? Would they misquote the scripture and leave it out? Never.

Matt 4:10 For it is written; ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Where is it written? Deut 5:9, Deut 6:13

Matt 22:41-45 Jesus quotes Ps 110:1. David used the name Jehovah. As the ASV said: A Psalm of David. Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool. " Why would Jesus change that quote? If Jesus failed in God's word then he failed. We don't believe that he did fail.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

When Jehovah had a nation, his organization, what happened? ;

That's an anarchronism: the nation of Israel was never a strict, ordered religious organization.

Oh really? It would seem to be. They had a class of priests, the Levites. They had times and places of worship. The whole nation was organized into groups and worshipped in the prescribed fashion. That is the way that Jehovah prescribed.

Jesus is God, even the early Christians believed so. Common Jehovah's Witness objections:
; ; ; ; (1) John 1:1 should really read that the "Word is a god" as there is no article in front. He is only ;god in the sense of being a divine being. Indeed, the ;even Pagans called Paul a god (Acts 12:22, 28:3-6).

; ; ; ; (2) Thomas' exclamation at John 20:28 was really a prayer or exclamation of joy ;to Jehovah.

; ; ; ; (3) Christ subordinated himself to the Father as seen in John 17:3. Also in John 20:17, Christ called the Father "my God," but we do not see the Father calling the Son "my God."

; ; ; ; (4) According to Jude 9 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Christ is really Michael the Archangel.

I can deal with those in a later disertation. I would rather stick to the topic for now. So as to this challenge. Email me or repost when I post that or start a new topic.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

A former JW troll by the nick of Dunscot was of the habit of turning up from time to time under new pseudonyms, usually of obscure mediaeval or renaissance scholars, philosophers or mystics. I find it interesting that this "good little Dub" should choose to do the same. Just wonderin'.

Are you saying that you have never seen Alias?

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

No, not a troll

Don't believe anyone over there at JWO.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

Shunning your child is emotionally a great evil because of all the hurt it causes

I don't recall that my original post deals with that subject.

However, to keep on subject. Yes, there were instances in which parents will killed for disobeying God's law and the children lived and vice versa. They were permanently shunned. Sure it hurt the family. I see no where in God's law to his people that said not to do that because it would cause grief. In fact the opposite is true. It was a deterant for children to learn to be obedient as the consequences were severe. Thus when considering the consequences, the hurtful results would not occur because the actions would not occur that initiated it.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

When Israel, as an organization, ;was abandoned by God, was it for the action of the collective, majority, or just the leadership? ; Who paid the price for that judgement?
If the Watchtower society are the New Israel as they claim, are not their followers obliged to obey all their commands? ; What if even one of the commands coming from the Watchtower society is evil? ; Does not the organization itself become liable to judgement? ; If a follower disobeys his own conscience in favour of the collective, believing he is following Jehovah's commands, is he/she guilty of that sin, or the organization as a whole?
Shunning is evil. ; It goes against a mother's nature to abandon her own child over doctrine (I am not talking gross evil here). ; If a mother overrides her good conscience, obeying rather the edicts of man, is she held, individually, accountable for the sin of abandonment?

Jehovah's purpose was to save a people as a whole, not specific individuals. When natural Israel was lost, Jehovah ordained spiritual Israel as a whole (not the individuals within).

The Watchtower does not claim to be new Israel. The 144,000 as a whole is spiritual Israel. The ones on earth today are the faithful and discreet slave. They publish through the Watchtower publications. The "followers" or rather the congregtion members are obliged to obey as far as Heb 13:7 says " Remember those who are taking the lead among YOU , who have spoken the word of God to YOU , and as YOU contemplate how [their] conduct turns out imitate [their] faith." Notice that it does not say 'imitate their conduct' but rather imitate their faith.

Also Heb 13:17 "

17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU . "

So you state that if one of the commands from those taking the lead is evil, what should one do? Reading Heb 13:17. I don't see choices in there. But I do see that if they do bad, they will render the account. So Jehovah is looking for us to obey Heb 13:17. The reason being the damage to you is done from the joy that we can inhibit and the sighing that we can do.

Shunning is evil you say. You are correct in that a mother should not abandon her child. But that is not what is done (or at least supposed to be done as some will say 'they did this or that there') in the Christian congregation. But then again, isn't it also evil for a child to go against one's mother? Try looking at matters from both sides. That is what I am doing in this disertation. Why do you focus on the mother abandoning the child but not the actions of the child? It goes back to Heb 13:17, if the children are obedient to the parents then they can parent with joy and not sighing as they will cause damage.

My suggestion is to consider matters from all viewpoints.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

so are you saying that we should stick with the truth, even if the society doesn't?

What does the Bible say?

When Saul, David, Solomon and the other kings turned away from Jehovah, was the right thing to do to also turn away from Jehovah and his worship? Of course not. The right way was to follow the way that Jehovah gave. Some did that like Elijah, Elisha, Hezekiah, Daniel, etc.

When those in the first century congregation turned away from following Jesus in the ways that he taught for worshipping Jehovah God, the way to do things was to continue in his way. That is with the governing body. Jesus was directing matters through the congregations and the elders. He is doing that today. Even if there are things that you don't like that the WTS has done, the truth is still taught by Jehovah's people, his Witnesses. So yes you should stick to the truth, that which is found and taught by Jehovah Witnesses.

102

When Jehovah's Witnesses do bad - Are criticisms of JW's valid? Part I

by rambaldi in

jw
friends

when we see news reports of jehovahs witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think?

sometimes people ridicule us for that.

obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

rambaldi

When we see news reports of Jehovah’s Witnesses who are reported to have done something bad, what do we think? Sometimes people ridicule us for that. But is it really a something bad against Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are Jehovah’s Witnesses expected to do no wrong?

Consider:The first people who were Jehovah’s witnesses were Adam and Eve. They were given this command:

(Genesis 2:16-17) . . .And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

They had a choice. Obey and live or disobey and die. They chose to disobey. We see that they did disobey and they died. Why give them a choice is Jehovah’s servants cannot do bad?

When Jehovah had a nation, his organization, what happened?

(Exodus 19:5-6) And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. 6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’.

Again, They had a choice. Obey and become his special property, disobey and be rejected.

That choice was further stated in:

(Deuteronomy 30:15-16) “See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad. 16 [If you will listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God,] which I am commanding you today, so as to love Jehovah your God, to walk in his ways and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will be bound to keep alive and to multiply, and Jehovah your God must bless you in the land to which you are going to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you do not listen, and you are actually seduced and bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I do tell YOU today that YOU will positively perish. YOU will not lengthen YOUR days on the ground to which you are crossing the Jordan to go to take possession of it. 19 I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against YOU today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that Jehovah swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.”

There is that choice again. Love Jehovah and walk in his ways for life, blessings or serve other gods and death and malediction. Why give them a choice is Jehovah’s servants cannot do bad?

As we see from Bible history some did love Jehovah and walked in his way, but others chose not to.

(Judges 2:11-14) 11 And the sons of Israel fell to doing what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah and serving the Ba´als. 12 Thus they abandoned Jehovah the God of their fathers who had brought them out of the land of Egypt and went following other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were all around them and they began bowing down to them, so that they offended Jehovah. 13 Thus they abandoned Jehovah and took up serving Ba´al and the Ash´to·reth images. 14 At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel, so that he gave them into the hands of the pillagers, and they began to pillage them; . . .

(1 Samuel 15:24-26) 24 Then Saul said to Samuel: “I have sinned; for I have overstepped the order of Jehovah and your words, because I feared the people and so obeyed their voice. 25 And now, please, pardon my sin and return with me that I may prostrate myself to Jehovah.” 26 But Samuel said to Saul: “I shall not return with you, for you have rejected the word of Jehovah, and Jehovah rejects you from continuing as king over Israel.. . .

(2 Samuel 12:9) . . .Why did you despise the word of Jehovah by doing what is bad in his eyes? U·ri´ah the Hit´tite you struck down with the sword, and his wife you took as your wife, and him you killed by the sword of the sons of Am´mon.

(1 Kings 11:7-11) 7 It was then that Sol´o·mon proceeded to build a high place to Che´mosh the disgusting thing of Mo´ab on the mountain that was in front of Jerusalem, and to Mo´lech the disgusting thing of the sons of Am´mon. 8 And that was the way he did for all his foreign wives who were making sacrificial smoke and sacrificing to their gods. 9 And Jehovah came to be incensed at Sol´o·mon, because his heart had inclined away from Jehovah the God of Israel, the one appearing to him twice. 10 And respecting this thing he commanded him not to go after other gods; but he had not kept that which Jehovah had commanded. 11 Jehovah now said to Sol´o·mon: “For the reason that this has taken place with you and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I laid in command upon you, I shall without fail rip the kingdom away from off you, . . .

(2 Chronicles 36:15-16) 15 And Jehovah the God of their forefathers kept sending against them by means of his messengers, sending again and again, because he felt compassion for his people and for his dwelling. 16 But they were continually making jest at the messengers of the [true] God and despising his words and mocking at his prophets, until the rage of Jehovah came up against his people, until there was no healing.

We see that Jehovah’s Witnesses from Adam through Israel made choices to do bad. How did that reflect upon Jehovah and his worship? It didn’t. His purposes still continued on. He still had the plan of redemption, for his obedient people.

Even in the first century Jehovah’s worshippers still chose to do bad and leave his worship.

(1 Corinthians 5:1-2) 5 Actually fornication is reported among YOU, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain [man] has of [his] father. 2 And are YOU puffed up, and did YOU not rather mourn, in order that the man that committed this deed should be taken away from YOUR midst?

(2 Timothy 2:16-19) 16 But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·nae´us and Phi·le´tus are of that number. 18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.

(Jude 4) . . .My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

First century Jehovah’s Witnesses chose to do bad and can we forget Judas. They were people who accepted the truth but later rejected it. Did that invalidate Jesus and his message? Of course not. No man can do that.

We even know of that in the future:

(Revelation 20:7-10) 7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur. . .

After a 1000 years of paradise, people still chose to leave Jehovah and his worship. They will choose death and malediction over life. There is prompting from Satan as was at the beginning and all throughout.

So what about now? If the first Jehovah’s Witnesses, the perfect Adam and Eve, His Witnesses the nation of Israel (Isaiah 43:10-12), his witnesses in the first century, Christians and the future people at the end of the millennium can all choose to disobey Jehovah why are Jehovah’s people today considered immune from that? Many choose malediction.

But we also see that many choose to be obedient to Jehovah God and choose life. Revelation 7:9 tells us “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;” We definitely know that while there are and have been

many Witnesses of Jehovah in the past who have proven unfaithful to God, there are many who have proven and will prove faithful to Jehovah God. Revelation 7:17 tells us that “the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.” Those who have chosen to do bad will not interrupt Jesus’ future activity of guiding his servants to the waters of life.