Posts by ThomasCovenant

6

Need help to reason with a JW regarding Jesus TRUE Congregation!

by TimothyT in

please be patient with me on this thread.

im going to try to explain all of this to a jw sister who believes salvation is only within the organisation.

if you have any thoughts and suggestions id most appreciate it.. as i was growing up as a jw, i refused to believe straight from the beginning that you had to be a jw to be saved.

ThomasCovenant

The Watchtower 1st March 1953 page 143 paragraph 12 says

''Ask yourself now, Did Christ Jesus, who set our example and told us to follow his example to gain life, join any church organization in his day? No, God does not require us to do that; but he requires us to worship him, to preach the good news of the Kingdom, to be Christians, to follow the example Jesus set, living in unalterable devotion to Jehovah God; to praise God and respect his supremacy, to resist all efforts to turn us from decency and to endure in faith. We have the Bible to show us the right way. Certainly it is not necessary for a person to become a member of a church to gain everlasting life''

60

I really want to go JW but..

by fortbethel in

jw
friends

i've studied with like 30 diff denominations.

i really feel jw is best for me.

i think it's the 144,000 part & the once a year get together when they pass around the sacrament that bothers me most.

ThomasCovenant

Hello Fortbethel,

Thanks for joining.

The Witnesses magazine The Watchtower 1st March 1953 page 143 paragraph 12 says

''Ask yourself now, Did Christ Jesus, who set our example and told us to follow his example to gain life, join any church organization in his day? No, God does not require us to do that; but he requires us to worship him, to preach the good news of the Kingdom, to be Christians, to follow the example Jesus set, living in unalterable devotion to Jehovah God; to praise God and respect his supremacy, to resist all efforts to turn us from decency and to endure in faith. We have the Bible to show us the right way. Certainly it is not necessary for a person to become a member of a church to gain everlasting life''

28

who does the society consider as apostates?

by booby in

from their literature as source.

i did some searching and was surprised that i couldn't find them referring to those who simply quit and/or speak their doubts as such..

ThomasCovenant

Watchtower 15th March '75 page 167

What is an "apostasy"? Is it a mere careless falling away or dropping off from Christian faith and practice? No. The word "apostasy" has a much stronger flavor. The Greek word used is defined as "a standing off from," "a departing," "a withdrawing

28

who does the society consider as apostates?

by booby in

from their literature as source.

i did some searching and was surprised that i couldn't find them referring to those who simply quit and/or speak their doubts as such..

ThomasCovenant

Watchtower 1st Oct '93 page 19

Apostasy is, in reality, a rebellion against Jehovah. Some apostates profess to know and serve God, but they reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible, but they reject Jehovah's organization and actively try to hinder its work. When they deliberately choose such badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of their makeup, then a Christian must hate (in the Biblical sense of the word) those who have inseparably attached themselves to the badness. True Christians share Jehovah's feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they "feel a loathing" toward those who have made themselves God's enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance

28

who does the society consider as apostates?

by booby in

from their literature as source.

i did some searching and was surprised that i couldn't find them referring to those who simply quit and/or speak their doubts as such..

ThomasCovenant

Reasoning from the Scriptures page 34

Apostasy

Definition: Apostasy is abandoning or deserting the worship and service of God, actually a rebellion against Jehovah God.

Some apostates profess to know and serve God but reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word.

Others claim to believe the Bible but reject Jehovah's organization.

2

Child abuse and 'Christian' forgiveness. What would Jesus have done?

by ThomasCovenant in

allegedly ''jesus held out hope of forgiveness even to prostitutes and tax collectors (considered among the vilest sinners in his day) who appreciated their need of him and repented of their former course of conduct.

as he told his critics: "persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do.

i came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.

ThomasCovenant

Allegedly ''Jesus held out hope of forgiveness even to prostitutes and tax collectors (considered among the vilest sinners in his day) who appreciated their need of him and repented of their former course of conduct. As he told his critics: "Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. . . . I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.'' WT 15th Jan '75.

Do you think Jesus would have forgiven and associated with child abusers/paedophiles if they were truly repentant?

Or would he take the view that it is in their nature and therefore would have nothing to do with them?

Would he associate with gluttons as it is possibly in their nature too?

Prostitution and tax collecting is not normally viewed as part of a persons make up but something they choose to do (excluding forced tax collecting of course).

''it is evident that Jesus was not accepting people in their sins as they were. Rather, one of the most important aspects of his ministry was to cure men of their spiritual illnesses, enabling them to be accepted by God because of their changed way of life'' WT 15th Aug '74

I'm confused as to whether, Christians believe in forgiveness of pretty well anything if the person appears to be repentant, or not.

36

'Apostates' being labelled 'mentally diseased'. Is discrimination against mentally disabled people by using it as a 'hate crime' term?

by punkofnice in

sorry if i'm not expressing myself very well but i wasn't allowed an education due to wbt$ regulations.. what i'm trying to say is that the wbt$ using the term 'mentally diseased' as an insulting term against those fictitious 'apostates' they want everyone to 'hate', is surely very discriminatory against those that have a genuine mental illness.. it's like calling a white person that has caught a suntan the 'n' word isn't it?

offensive, inappropriate and utterly destructive.. in the uk the press can be pretty sensitive about such name calling that implies that mental disease is somehow to be used as a hate crime word.. is it worth writing to the press to complain about such discrimination?.

ThomasCovenant

punkofnice,

Interlinear download

http://www.soundwitness.org/jw/kit_download.htm

24

"Unscriptural to say a former child abuser could never enjoy exemplary privleges of service." Oh really?

by headisspinning in

it is a known fact that on average a pedophile will abuse as many as 200 children in his/her lifetime.. with that in mind.

read an extract from an august 1, 1995 letter to all bodies of elders in the usa.. i guess these untrained elders are somehow experts in this area and can determine if someone will reoffend even though law enforcement, psychiatrists and specialists cannot offer the same guarantee and in many cases will even suggest that these known sex offenders are very likely to reoffend when the opportunity presents itself.... to all bodies of elders in the united states.

august i, 1995.

ThomasCovenant

''Matthew 12:31 and I Corinthians 6:9-11, shows it is possible for a person to stop his or
her wrongful course, repent, and thereafter live in harmony with God's righteous standards. This
is true of all wrongdoers-s-even a former child abuser.''

Can they be faulted for this line of reasoning from a Biblical viewpoint?

Or is this a Bible problem as opposed to a religious sect problem?

36

'Apostates' being labelled 'mentally diseased'. Is discrimination against mentally disabled people by using it as a 'hate crime' term?

by punkofnice in

sorry if i'm not expressing myself very well but i wasn't allowed an education due to wbt$ regulations.. what i'm trying to say is that the wbt$ using the term 'mentally diseased' as an insulting term against those fictitious 'apostates' they want everyone to 'hate', is surely very discriminatory against those that have a genuine mental illness.. it's like calling a white person that has caught a suntan the 'n' word isn't it?

offensive, inappropriate and utterly destructive.. in the uk the press can be pretty sensitive about such name calling that implies that mental disease is somehow to be used as a hate crime word.. is it worth writing to the press to complain about such discrimination?.

ThomasCovenant

ThomasCovenant - I don't have an interlinear anymore, does it translate the GK to 'mentally diseased' in Timothy?

Not sure what GK is but the 4th Greek word literally translated as 'being diseased' in the Interlinear is then read as 'mentally diseased' in the scripture, as I showed above the breakdown of words.

36

'Apostates' being labelled 'mentally diseased'. Is discrimination against mentally disabled people by using it as a 'hate crime' term?

by punkofnice in

sorry if i'm not expressing myself very well but i wasn't allowed an education due to wbt$ regulations.. what i'm trying to say is that the wbt$ using the term 'mentally diseased' as an insulting term against those fictitious 'apostates' they want everyone to 'hate', is surely very discriminatory against those that have a genuine mental illness.. it's like calling a white person that has caught a suntan the 'n' word isn't it?

offensive, inappropriate and utterly destructive.. in the uk the press can be pretty sensitive about such name calling that implies that mental disease is somehow to be used as a hate crime word.. is it worth writing to the press to complain about such discrimination?.

ThomasCovenant

I can't seem to copy and paste from my Kingdom Interlinear 1969 downloaded version so I'll try typing out the literal translation as shown.

I Timothy 6:4 ''he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words.''

Greek word

1st = he has been made to smoke,

2nd = nothing knowing well

3rd = but

4th = being diseased

5th = about

6th = seekings

7th = and

8th = word fights