Posts by Jerry1

77

For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

by TheListener in

jw
friends

i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

this is especially for the new poster darcy.

i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

Jerry1

Darcy, you sound like a great young lady........just one more post and i will quit bugging you.

According to the WT, a person cannot have Jesus as their agent ( mediator ) unless they are annointed. Jesus is only the mediator for the144k and then in turn the annointed are the mediator for everyone else. Too many middle men here sugar................take care jerry

watchtower 1951 june 15

Hence, besides individually possessing God’s Word, we need a theocratic organization. Yes, besides having God’s spirit of illumination, a Christian needs Jehovah’s theocratic organization in order to understand the Bible. He needs to attend the meetings arranged for by that organization and to study with fellow Christians. He needs the organization, too, in order to work in harmony with God’s purposes and to be directed aright in his movements. The reason is that Jehovah God is dealing with his organization, and does not deal with individuals who are outside of his organization or who defiantly try to act independently of it.

watchtower 1981 8/1

Where do you stand with regard to the fulfillment of the illustration of the "wheat" and the "weeds"? The fact that the "harvest" of the "sons of the kingdom" is well advanced proves that the "conclusion [synte´leia] of the system of things" is nearing its end (telos). Your attitude toward the wheatlike anointed "brothers" of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into "everlasting cutting-off" or receive "everlasting life."

77

For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

by TheListener in

jw
friends

i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

this is especially for the new poster darcy.

i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

Jerry1

Tks Darcy for your time, and listen i am just asking you questions because you sound open person and still active. i just trying to learn. If you will consider a further idea on being crucified/impaled with Christ and that is the idea of an agent or representative. If a stock broker buys you some stock you bought some stock, if a real estate agent sells your house you sold the house. There is a passage in Heb 7:1-10 that tells about Levi paying tithes long time before he was even born through his agent Abraham. i know it sounds like i being preachy quoting scripture but that is what Paul meant that he was crucified with Christ. Christ was his representative. A person's agent can die for their sin even before they are born.

That make sense? i not trying to talk you into anything i just asking if that makes sense...........thks again for bearing with me jerry

77

For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

by TheListener in

jw
friends

i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

this is especially for the new poster darcy.

i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

Jerry1

Hi Darcy, I lurk in this forum to try to gain understanding of the witness view of things. I wont bore you with my story but i have never been a witness and never even been inside a kingdom hall. I read your profile and it appears you are a active witness no? If you could further

elaborate on your thoughts about salvation it would help me ...i have the watchtower cd and have read a good bit and it seems like the only salvation promise for the "great crowd" are generic statements like Acts 3:21 or Rom 8:21. I can't find a promise that is personal like what

Paul says in Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Do you think you were crucified with Christ? Do you feel that Christ lives in you personally ?

I really want you thoughts, if you have time tks jerry

54

Something strange about "Christs invisible presence"...

by Hellrider in

something just occured to me: .

we all know that "parousia" doesn`t mean "invisble presence" at all, it just means "presence", but think about the inlogical...ness about the whole jw-doctrine on 1914. my question is: what is jesus` job really, up there in heaven?

- he "took reign" and was "given the throne" in 1914. but what does that mean, really?

Jerry1

So what does he do all day?

Hi Hr, I think you have asked some excellent questions and this really should be the kind of approach anyone should take in talking to a

witness....common sense. I was never a JW, never even to a meeting and made the mistake of arguing doctrines with my JW relative.

So what does he do all day?

And more importantly How would we know if he did something like say uummm appoint someone to be in charge ???

5

church

by Jerry1 in

jw
friends

i think i said this already but i dont post enough for y'all to remember that i never been inside a kingdom hall, never started a bible study.

just have family in.

i made lots of bad arguments in the beginning and so i backed off and tried to learn.

Jerry1

I think i said this already but i dont post enough for y'all to remember that i never been inside a kingdom hall, never started a bible study. just have family in. I made lots of bad arguments in the beginning and so i backed off and tried to learn. From time to time i would like to test ideas

here so as to not get suprised anymore.

A group at my church want me to share with them a few thoughts on how to talk to a Witness at the door so today my request of you is to

critique this small handout i have prepared. I am going to talk for about hour to put some context around it. thanks for any ideas jerry

21 In 1918, when Jesus Christ inspected those claiming to be his slaves, he found an international group of Christians publishing Bible truths for use both inside the congregation and outside in the preaching work. In 1919 it truly turned out to be as Christ had foretold: "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings." (Matthew 24:46, 47) These true Christians entered into the joy of their Master. Having shown themselves "faithful over a few things," they were appointed by the Master to be "over many things." (Matthew 25:21) The faithful slave and its Governing Body were in place, ready for a widened assignment. How glad we should be that this was so, for loyal Christians are richly benefiting from the devoted work of the faithful slave and its Governing Body!

This is cut and paste from the Watchtower magazine of 3/15 1990 Page 14 paragraph 21.

55 In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book "The Truth Shall Make You Free." In its chapter 11, entitled "The Count of Time," it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man’s existence into the decade of the 1970’s. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia.

Basic Premises...........Parousia is Greek and means "presence" especially pertaining to royalty at Matthew 24:46, no Greek dictionary or scholar says it means invisible presence. Parousia translated "cometh" in KJV. This is just infomation, if your conversation gets into the nuance of a Greek word you probably need to punt.

The coming ( parousia / presence ) of the Lord Jesus cannot be seperated from the appointment of the Servant / Slave in Matthew 24:45-47 as they are obviously described as being simultaneous. When the Master arrives the

the servant is "made ruler" KJV. The Watchtower was saying that Jesus was "present" since 1874 even up until 1943 according to these quotes from their own publications.

Basic questions..... Is Jesus in Heaven ? Is Heaven a long way off ? Can you see into Heaven ? What are they doing in Heaven today right now? Can your leaders see into Heaven? How did they know they were approved or appointed? When was the Slave ( your leaders ) appointed to feed you with Watchtower magazines,1874, 1918 or when? Who knew of the appointment first? Where was he/she/they? How was it made known, booming voice, still small voice, donkey talking, angel? Warm fuzzy feeling? Was someone ( who when where) reading Matthew 24 and just get a feeling that he was now in charge? The second coming of Jesus, the greatest most monumental event we can imagine, surely your leaders know all these basic details. Surely it was big news in the Watchtower of the day. 1874 1914 1918 or when ( also who, where how ).

Remember the important point is Jesus' approval. We all make mistakes but Jesus does not. If Jesus approved them OK, but we just need some more information.

When the Bible says that people worshipped Jesus, that is not the important point, because people will make mistakes and worship in error, see Exodus 32:4 Acts 14:11 or Revelation 19:10. What is important is that Jesus approved of people worshipping Him. This is not a small point. We are not so interested in what the Watchtower leaders were doing at any given time in history. They made mistakes and so do we, but they have made an extraordinary claim concerning Jesus, that they received his approval and appointment to be over His sheep.

We would need some more information.

2

questions

by Jerry1 in

jw
friends

this quote is from a kingdom ministry of 1995. what does the phrase "substance sufficient" mean ?.

what does speaking gods word boldly not mean?

[uw p. 175 par.

Jerry1

This quote is from a Kingdom Ministry of 1995. What does the phrase "Substance sufficient" mean ?

What does speaking God’s Word boldly not mean? [uw p. 175 par. 13] It

does not mean being harsh or defiant in our manner. (Substance sufficient)

This appears to be a muliple choice question with the answer they want in bold. Are they saying the wheat is limited to anointed?

In Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 13:36-43, the wheat represents (the faithful men of old; the great crowd; anointed

Christians), whereas the weeds represent (all nonbelievers; imitation Christians; the scribes and Pharisees). [uw p. 179 par. 7]

14

old light on mediating...

by lost_sheep in

blow the dust off your ancient watchtower tomes & delve into the annals (or should that be anals?

) of the wts's past... i'm trying to find out if they have ever taught that christ is the mediator for all people.

recently finding out (after being raised a witness) that they teach that christ is not the mediator for everyone was disturbing to say the least.

Jerry1

Hi lostsheep here are some quotes

the first is from the Watchtower Oct 1 1900 page 2709 when Russell taught his definition of the "Christ" to be "Christ head and body" which meant of course that Jesus ( head ) and Russell & associates ( body) constitute the mediator, other words they are the mediator.

The Law Covenant, of which Moses was the Mediator, and which was given at Mount Sinai amid the thunderings and

Iightnings and voices, etc., was typical of the New Covenant of which Christ (Head and body) is the Mediator, and which

Is to be introduced to the world of mankind after the whole bodv of Christ has shed its blood and been completed and

glorified. Acts 3 :22 ; Col. 1 :24.

The following is from the book "Salvation" by Rutherford page 197 where he felt it necessary to "correct" an aspect of the Christ head and body doctrine. Here he says that

the body did not actually shed its blood for mankind only the head ( Jesus alone ) performed that function of the Mediator. If you were to search the literature from 1800 to about 1920 you see that phrase over and over "Christ head and body". The Catholic church also uses the phrase but of course the "body" is a different group of folks.

Today the WT never says that the 144k are the Christ, they say they are anointed...........same thing

It has been repeatedly said that the church, that is, the glorified members of the body of

Christ, by reason of their sacrifice, have a part the sin offering.; and in support of that theory

the following scripture is offered: "Then shall kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for

the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood

the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat."-Leviticus16 : 15.

Neither the foregoing nor any other scripture sustains the conclusion that the body mem-

bers of Christ have any part in the sin offering.It is the lifeblood of the man Jesus alone that

that is the valuable thing, the purchase price and which is presented and paid over as a sin

offering.

13

evidently

by Jerry1 in

jw
friends

take the watchtower cd and do a search on the word "evidently".

after you see the number of hits what sentence can you make.

using the word "evidently"?

Jerry1

Take the Watchtower CD and do a search on the word "evidently". After you see the number of hits what sentence can you make

using the word "evidently"?

23

NWT 2 Corinthians 5:20

by TheListener in

in 2 corinthians 5:20 the nwt says, "we are therefore ambassadors substituting for christ, as though god were making entreaty through us.

as substitutes for christ we beg: "become reconciled to god.".

i could not locate any other bible translations that have the word "substituting" in the text.

Jerry1

The Law Covenant, of which Moses was the Mediator, and which was given at Mount Sinai amid the thunderings and

Iightnings and voices, etc., was typical of the New Covenant of which Christ (Head and body) is the Mediator, and which

Is to be introduced to the world of mankind after the whole bodv of Christ has shed its blood and been completed and

glorified. Acts 3 :22 ; Col. 1 :24.

This is from the Watchtower 1900 page 2709 (reprints) and shows that Russell believed that he was part of the

mediator and not just an agent.

It has been repeatedly said that the church, that is, the glorified members of the body of

Christ, by reason of their sacrifice, have a part the sin offering.; and in support of that theory

the following scripture is offered: "Then shall kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for

the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood

the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat."-Leviticus16 : 15.

Neither the foregoing nor any other scripture sustains the conclusion that the body mem-

bers of Christ have any part in the sin offering.It is the lifeblood of the man Jesus alone that

that is the valuable thing, the purchase price and which is presented and paid over as a sin

offering.

This is from the book "Salvation" page 197 where Rutherford only refuted the most blatant aspect of the

"Christ head and body" doctrine.

Even though today they would not say they shed their own blood for the sin of mankind at Calvary they still

are the Mediator ( Christ ).

13

How to Get WT Publications

by Broken Hearted in

okay remember i am non jw so how can i get the wt publications or them on cd or without going to my local kingdom hall?

just want to be able to relate to what is being taught and to do my own analyzisis so that when i am having conversations with the jw guy i have fallen in love with i will have my scriptures to back up the publication researched and any questions i have ready?

Jerry1

Broken Hearted, you might be interested in my experience as i also never was a witness, actually never even been inside a kingdom hall.

When my daughter started dating my future son-in-law he was "studying" with the witnesses. I had never met or had a conversation with a

witness so i asked him to give me some watchtowers to read. He brought me a stack about a foot high and i took a few days off from work

and just started reading. My opinion is that a person like you or me will never understand the JW religion from reading their literature. It is

all between the lines. Maybe this will help and also folks here can correct me.

After Jesus went back to heaven people started being saved ( forgiven/born again/had righteousness imputed to them ) pretty much like any

protestant church person would recognize. After about 1935 years there was only 144,000 of these folks and they are defined as the

body/bride of Christ. Supposedly it was always God's plan to get these 144k in the fold and then deal with the rest of humanity during the

millennium. Almost everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected during the millennium to be given a chance to get perfect and so be

acceptable to God ( devil is bound see ). The 144k ( body/bride/church/congregation/joint-heirs/underpriests/kings etc.) will be in heaven

along side Jesus because they constitute the Christ ( christ=head and body ). Another word for Christ ( head and body ) is Anointed so there

are really 144,000 +1 anointed that will dispense salvation during the millenium. In fact this arrangement has been in effect already since

about 1935. Jesus saves the 144k and then they save everyone else. Jesus is the mediator for the 144k only. Excuse me if you knew all that.

I really think history is the way to get in their kitchen. They have this idea that at a certain time Jesus wanted to make the arrangement

official or maybe go public. For centuries it had been the Christian religion to go straight to Jesus for salvation. When it was about time for the

next step in God's plan He needed to officially appoint his helpers, the anointed. As they say he turned his attention to the Earth or he was

in a new sense "present", invisibly of course, up in Heaven. He looked down to see who was worthy. Weelll i gona give 2 guesses who was

worthy. Now the question is when/where/how and who did this happen too, this appointment/approval by Jesus. The scripture they use is

Matt 24:45 or Luke 12:42. Remember these 2 things cannot be considered seperate, his "presense" and their being approved or made rulers.

First they said Jesus was present in 1874 and up until about 1942 but now they say he was present in 1914 and chose them in 1918.

They ( me too ) believe in heaven. Heaven is a long way off. They believe ( me too ) Jesus is in heaven so how did he communicate the

choise he had made? was it a booming voice, still small voice, angel, donkey talking, handwriting on wall? Who was the recipient of

the how, who heard the voice, saw the angel? Where? ( not a biggie but surely a person would note it) When ? 1919 ? well they were saying

in 1919 that Jesus had been present since 1874 so then someone must have been chosen in 1874. Remember we are only interested in

what Jesus does not what the organization does. They make mistakes, fair enough but Jesus does not so we are only asking who did

Jesus approve. Who did Jesus approve, when, where and how did he let that person know? comments? jerry