I did, but I didn't think of it as something that I'd stop doing if they became dubs...I just wanted them to feel welcome. I remember sitting in mtg when new ppl were visiting and cringeing b/c I'd be hearing what was said w/the thoughts of "well somebody who just heard this w/o knowing x, y, and z (insert excuse for why the speaker sounds like an idiot) would really think this sounds bad..."
Posts by Cady
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10Did you smile and love bomb as a JW?
by greendawn inwhile jws can you recall having that artificial smile and sweet, smooth way of talking at the doors?
also did you participate in the deceitful love bombing of newly interested persons in your kingdom hall?
it was all part of the artificial charm meant to entice unsuspecting victims into the wts nets.
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Men and women don't understand eachother
by ballistic in'i'm starting to like you too much... i'm gunna try not to speak or see you for a few days' .
ok, i will post back here any more things i don't understand as time progresses .
and ladies, feel free to post anything you don't understand that men say, i'm sure we will know what is going on (not)!!
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Cady
You remember the old jw line about not using the word "free" to describe the literature? Oddly enough they were right on the psych aspect of that. Anything gotten too easily is not as valued. As much as guys like the chase, girls do too (though they might not agree if you asked them) b/c if you're too easy to get, there's the thought that something's wrong w/you or you'd already be taken. Also, a lot of women (this is prob true for men too, but I can't say) feel somewhat inadequate so if you want her badly, she's thinking "what's so wrong w/him that he wants me so much?" I find this to be particularly the case to women who appear to be the strongest to an outside observer.
Good luck in the oldest of games,
c.
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Newspaper Article on JWs today - Write the paper - PLEASE!!
by Seeker4 intoday's sunday, claremont, nh eagle times has an interesting article on jws - inspired in part by a quick build kingdom hall going up this weekend in rockingham, vt.. here's the link: eagle times article october 23, 2005. i thought the article was good, but may have gone a bit easy on the witnesses.
no mention of witness shunning, the dateline expose, silentlambs, the blood issue, witness beliefs, etc.
also a bit confusing is the assertion of the tremendous growth rate at the same time that the article states that baptisms have dropped off 33% in the us since the mid-90s (holy shit!
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Cady
I replied - thanks for the link!
Cady
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65
Sect or cult?
by Cady inso i finally decided to get my a** to the library and read some real research on cults.
the book i'm starting with is "psychodynamic perspectives on religion, sect and cult.
in the introduction they mention margaret thaler singer's definition of a destructive cult as an organization in which:a leader claims divinity or special relationship with god.
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Cady
Well I was away at friends for a bit and just caught up on this thread this morning.
Proplog, I know at this point that nothing I can say will affect your thinking. But you know, I work everyday with kids who've been through the toughest stuff imaginable. That line about everybody going through the same level of stuff - bulls**t. Completely and totally. And so here's a scenario for you.
I have a good life. I'm in college w/two jobs that are amazing; I get to work with some of the top research scientists in my field in the world. I will not for two moments give myself all the credit for coming from where I was - the love of dear people in my life and their kindness and compassion helped me greatly. So when I work with these kids I don't tell them to grow up, get over it. I don't minimize their pain. I let them talk and never shame them. And they open up to me and they attach, and they are able to have love which in their world is priceless and rare. Then they are open enough to listen to me, and I can see the changes they make after we talk. They think my life is great and they know I've been through tough stuff and they see that as a hope - Cady's made it, so can I. But they will not attach or open up or trust me if I berate them.
Sorry, but at this point you've tapped into that maternal instinct of protection I have for the children I work with. Tell me to grow up and toughen up and whatever sh*t you want to say, but the fact that I don't ever repeat that ideal for life to these children is part of what gives them a chance. Oh, or maybe you should have tried that with the people who went through Hurricane Katrina - you know, you were in a boat rescuing people and turned over a bloated body and it was your pregnant fiancee - get over it already. The man who told me that couldn't even say her name for the physical pain he was in of just enduring that memory.
I don't know what made you so hardened and cold, but I am so sorry for you. I just feel really bad. You can get mad and yell at me, whatever you want, and I'm not reviewing and editing this post b/c I have 18 hours of work ahead of me today so I don't really have the time. And I imagine you're all defensive and you won't think for 2 seconds about anything I've written other than where the weak points are that you can rip apart. But I'm hoping that someone who might be thinking similarly will soften a little to what people have gone through; it's so easy to tell someone "get your s**t together" - it's much harder to hold their hand encourage them as they do so, to stay by their side as they work their way through life.
I ask for no pity in my life, and I accept none. But I do demand of anyone I allow near these kids I love that they treat them w/respect and empathy. They show such to each other, btw. I'm sorry you can't have the kindness in your heart that a 13-year old who's beat to within an inch of his life has for another child.
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65
Sect or cult?
by Cady inso i finally decided to get my a** to the library and read some real research on cults.
the book i'm starting with is "psychodynamic perspectives on religion, sect and cult.
in the introduction they mention margaret thaler singer's definition of a destructive cult as an organization in which:a leader claims divinity or special relationship with god.
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Cady
You said: And perhaps even in the healing process it could help a person to call the jws a cult if that helped them to validate their pain
That is what I mean by shifting responsibility to a definition. You don't define things so you have an excuse for your actions.
Pro -
Perhaps I can clarify. To use one's past as an excuse for making negative choices is self-destructive. However, to allow yourself to acknowledge the pain you've dealt with is IMO an important part of recovery. To lose one's friends and family is painful; to refuse to acknowledge that you are in pain, to say "I'm fine, nothing hurts me, I'll move on" is to create within yourself cognitive dissonance. If you've been well-trained to react to your own vulnerability with anger and shame, perhaps being able to label the situation accurately will create in yourself room for acceptance of that pain w/o the shame. In an ideal world, we would be able to admit when we were hurting and then move on w/o feeling shame for hurting. If we're told to consistently minimize the situations we've dealt with, then we feel even more shame at hurting.
An interesting perspective on this situation in relation to the way we raise young men today is the book "Real Boys" written by Dr. William Pollack, Codirector of the Center for Men at McLean Hospital/Harvard Medical School. In one example, he discusses a 14-yr old:
This mask of masculinity enabled Adam to make a bold (if inaccurate) statement to the world: "I can handle it. Everything's fine. I am invincible."
Adam, like other boys, wore this mask as an invisible shield, a persona to show the outside world a feigned self-confidence and bravado, and to hide the shame he felt at his feelings of vulnerability, powerlessness, and isolation. He couldn't handle the school situation alone...and he didn't know how to ask for help, even from people he knew loved him.
I grant you that this is a book written at a non-academic audience, but its author is credible and you could no doubt pull up the studies he's done to support his research in peer-reviewed journals. I don't have the time or energy to do so right now.
As a child, if I cried, I was told to breathe deeply to stop it. My brother was told more specifically "be a man, stop crying." This was at a very young age. The Protestant work ethic carries w/it a sense of value from how hard you can push yourself; weakness is shame. And yet I know I have bought into this belief structure so strongly that even right now I feel compelled to defend myself, as if you would think that I play the victim for the mistakes I've made. That I even feel that in defending a person's right to pain my personal value comes on trial is extremely disconcerting.
That's the root of prejudice and hatred. The Nazis defined Jews as genetically inferior humans and then proceeded to excuse themselves for trying to exterminate them. So are you suggesting that it's proper to define the JW's as a bad "cult" just so somebody can feel better? How childish. That kind of logic was great for getting children over bumping their head on the coffee table. "Bad table. Here let me hit it. Now do you feel better?"
No, I'm saying it's appropriate to accurately label the source of one's pain. Our society negates one's worth if they feel pain that society views as illegitimate; if labeling JWs as a cult vs a sect protects a person from that shame by providing a lable that helps more fully reflect the intensity of the situation/experience then I feel it is a positive choice to do so.
Calling my suggestion and I think implying that I am, by extension, childish, is rather close to a flame and I'm not sure necessary or helpful. I apologize if you feel I may have done something similar to you, although after reviewing my posting I don't see that I did. I would much rather focus on the topic at hand; personal attacks don't seem to encourage rational though. Again, if you feel that I've done the same I apologize in advance. Much is lost in the ability communicate via the net vs in-person and miscommunications arise easily.
"we often try and say something shouldn't have hurt us, even though it clearly did, and the word cult has such a negative connotation that it might allow us to stop apologizing for feeling hurt. "
I hope you see the semantic problem of saying "it" hurt you. When it comes to emotional hurt you had better admit that it is your catastrophizing that makes things unbearable. You can choose to call something "unfortunate" or you can blow it up and call it "terrible".
If this makes you angry. So be it. The language of victimology appeals to the pre-scientific mind and it takes a lot of effort to dispute those assumptions.
An organization is the combination of its regulations/rules and the people who adhere to such. Without the rules that are part of this org few individuals who are JWs would reject their family members; w/o the people who live by these rules, the rules themselves would be powerless. Hence, I feel that saying an organization is harmful is a completely legitimate statement.
I'm choosing to believe you are using "you had better admit" not as direct reference to me but as in "an individual". However, I think telling someone they "had better" do something is not very productive in general. Further, to say losing one's friends and family is "unfortunate" is an interesting phraseology and I do not think that an individual feeling more hurt than "unfortunate" seems to bare out is catastrophizing anything.
Finally, saying that "the language of victimology appeals ot the pre-scientific mind" etc...it's quite obvious to me that this is a personal attack and I'd much rather not engage in that.
Cady
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65
Sect or cult?
by Cady inso i finally decided to get my a** to the library and read some real research on cults.
the book i'm starting with is "psychodynamic perspectives on religion, sect and cult.
in the introduction they mention margaret thaler singer's definition of a destructive cult as an organization in which:a leader claims divinity or special relationship with god.
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Cady
nw,
From what area of research are you seeking definition? The Social Science definition is very different than the one from Theological Science. Are to trying to research and address the issue from a sociological perspective or a theological paradigm? Perhaps assessing the damage in each area seperately might make it easier to reason through.
Psychological actually; prob the def for psych and soc would be the same.
I found them (the jw) to be a cult both socially and theologically. Most other religions that I studied were only cults theologically, which I don't have a problem with. Once seeing it as a sociopathic group, damage control became much easier and I was able to move on to a more fulfilling belief system of my choosing.
I'm very interested in your last sentence there - how sociopathic, what methods of damage control and also how you chose a more fulfilling belief system. Not sure if you feel like expounding but I'd be grateful if you did...
Cady :-)
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65
Sect or cult?
by Cady inso i finally decided to get my a** to the library and read some real research on cults.
the book i'm starting with is "psychodynamic perspectives on religion, sect and cult.
in the introduction they mention margaret thaler singer's definition of a destructive cult as an organization in which:a leader claims divinity or special relationship with god.
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Cady
Proplog,
It's important for people to be aware of the dangers of victimology. Blame is not the answer. It may be convenient to shift responsibility to a "definition" but it doesn't solve the problem. It is important for us to realize that we may not be as immune to social influence as we would like to be. Humans are "troop animals" and some of us have a temperament that craves group oriented activities. These can be people as different as firemen and teachers.
You know, I'm reading your msg and I'm just feeling my irritation rise and I don't know if that's b/c I'm misperceiving what you're saying...
First, my interest in an accurate definition has nothing to do with shifting responsibility to such and I'm not even sure how that would be possible. You can't communicate with others in research unless you can have a good set of definitions and reasoning for each definition; the ability to categorize via such is also necessary.
Second, adopting the role of victim as a lifelong mentality is harmful. To deny someone the right to their feelings, including their right to feel pain over the loss of their (insert here: childhood, friends, family, ability to trust, ability to love deeply) seems cruel. I have great faith that anyone who had the strength to leave the jws will find within themselves the strength to move forward in their lives; they do not need to have additional guilt heaped on them for the privilege of acknowledging their hurt.
And I'm missing where the "social influence" line of thought is going...sorry, not much sleep, perhaps I'm a bit out of it.
Don't expect the healing process to remove the scars. That is an effort at denial.
If you wear your emotional scars proudly they will be constant reminders of what you need to avoid. My JW experiences have been a bitter lesson but a lesson I wouldn't trade away. I will never be bamboozled again!
Sorry, this isn't what I want. I want to figure out what damage has been done, to acknowledge it and then move forward. But is my method any better than yours? Nah, just what works for me. But the words "that is an effort at denial" is quite a blunt statement of my intention w/o their being any possiblity that someone, from my brief post, could fairly make.
Cady
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65
Sect or cult?
by Cady inso i finally decided to get my a** to the library and read some real research on cults.
the book i'm starting with is "psychodynamic perspectives on religion, sect and cult.
in the introduction they mention margaret thaler singer's definition of a destructive cult as an organization in which:a leader claims divinity or special relationship with god.
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Cady
My question pertained more to the area of research as opposed to the usage in everyday life. Part of the foundation of understanding an area of study is having a good hold on the definitions that are part of the field. And perhaps even in the healing process it could help a person to call the jws a cult if that helped them to validate their pain - i.e. we often try and say something shouldn't have hurt us, even though it clearly did, and the word cult has such a negative connotation that it might allow us to stop apologizing for feeling hurt.
I wonder if ppl who cheer when the jws are attacked do so, less out of maliciousness towards the individual people, but more out of a lack of knowing what to do with their own anger and hurt and helplessness. I'm glad the jws are having less and less of an effect on their members, although I can't vouch for that b/c I've been gone for three years. But I was very devout and it was my life, and remains such for my family.
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All those years as a JW have finally come in handy... :-D
by Cady in...when arguing against other fundamentalist dooms-dayers!.
not sure what the jw point was in mentioning it, but i remember reading in their lit a quote from plato about how degraded the youths were of his time.
(that doesn't help their "everything's getting worse" ideology so they must have been trying to counter it...) anyway, reading an article for class that says "it makes sense to recall the way morality was transmitted before youth disorder became such a distressing issue.
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Cady
...when arguing against other fundamentalist dooms-dayers!
Not sure what the JW point was in mentioning it, but I remember reading in their lit a quote from Plato about how degraded the youths were of his time. (That doesn't help their "everything's getting worse" ideology so they must have been trying to counter it...) Anyway, reading an article for class that says "it makes sense to recall the way morality was transmitted before youth disorder became such a distressing issue."
I loved the quote I found as a retort (thanks Awake! for my "college education" ):
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?" - Plato, 4th Century BC
Hmm...rioting in the streets inflamed with wild notions...kind of sounds fun...
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Cady
Hey av,
I know my brother (lostreality) has a friend down there who's familiar w/exjws (not sure if that part matters). PM me if you want more info.
Cady