clash_city_rockers

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Posts by clash_city_rockers

• 
  7

  Baltimore/DC

  by cellomould in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  anyone who lives in the area feel free to respond or send e-mail.. i will be in the neighborhood for a research meeting on sept 11.

  (interestingly, i began my lab notebook two years ago on september 11. this will be one of my last research gigs before i file my thesis and graduate.

  good thing i don't believe in luck, considering the events of last year.

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  clash_city_rockers

  Hi, Maxwell

  Since you live No. VA. Do you know Mike Paisley? I think he's still an elder in Fall Church or Alexandria?

  If you do cool How is he doing I hope all is well with them.

  peace,

  jr
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Hey I'm an X-dub My 2 and 1/2 year sentense in the J-Dubs ended in 1991

  Bob is cool and he is a gutzy guy I'm sure you'll like him

  cheers,
  jr

  BTW I'm a NoCal guy who lives just a few miles south east of Oakland down on 580.
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Hillary you are so far gone that even the students at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, CA would repudiate your thinking and rebuke you. You are definatly not in the mainstream nor are you even in the left but the redical liberal left.

  Dawg, pay Hillary no mind he is just a constant nay sayer against bible believing christians and sound orthodox bible beliving doctrine.

  peace,
  jr
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  In regards to church Little says:
  

  Much of the problem and misunderstanding here, I believe, is the dual use of the word "church".
  Are we talking church building including local congregation of members and adherants, or the Universal church (body of Christ)?

  Lets stick with the local congregation first and the universal second.

  Little stated:
  

  I would suggest that a Christian will not necessarily "leave the Watchtower immediately".
  As we previously considered, when discussing the Trinity, there is a progressive enlightenment.
  Again you are being dogmatic, yet each ones path is different, as is each one's mode of conversion.
  It's not disobedience until you go against the express revelation of the Lord.

  Again you have not been listening to my post. This is what I said in page two of the thread when answering Penn
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28362&site=3&page=2
  

  What I was trying to communicate is that if you read me correctly is that if one REJECTS the trinity then he or she can not be counted as a Christian. When one is save he may not understand the trinity, but yet is humbled by the Lord as to be open to be taught by his word. This includes the doctrine of the trinity. This means when one is saved he will sooner or later embrace the doctrine of the trinity, but never reject it. I apologies if I didn’t make this point clear.

  What the scriptures teach is that when one is converted his heart is changed by God and he is a new person with a new identity. He has no business in the Watchtower. New converts have a moral obligation to leave the WT immediately, just as some guy who got saved and is living with his girlfriend and is not married to her has a moral obligation to leave that relationship and live a godly life. Two passages in the bible that you have to take in account for in regards to new Christians in fact all Christians for that matter.

  Eph 4:25-32
  

  25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin"[4] : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
  29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

  If we are to walk away from falsehood and speak the truth (remember these are imperative passages) then the Watchtower is not for us. Also speaking the words of the WT is unwholesome talk.

  Col. 31-17
  

  1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[1] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
  5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[2] 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
  12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
  15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

  
  Real quick vs. 1, 2 a Christian always has a Christo-centric focus in life. Verse 3 is an indicative this is who you are in Christ. This is true of you. You don’t have to earn that position that is why this is an indicative passage. 4-11 is imperative for those are already saved and secure in Christ. This is why it is an imperative for the Christian. Again with verse 12a indicative 12b on imperative. You can see the application is obvious. When one is saved you know he free from the bondage of sin, therefore free to live a godly life. Now to those who have come to Christ and are still in the WT live as God wants you to live and leave the Watchtower and other sinful lives.

  Little who seems to equivocate on historic doctrinal terms posts:
  

  My comments about your posted archaic affirmation of faith, were directed at the language used on this forum. I made an attempt to simplify it because as it stood, with no supporting explanation, few would agree to such direct oaths.
  As for myself, I can interpret them in such a way as to find them agreeable, as I can with the WCF. I don't feel that I need to further elaborate, as my position regarding that document has been made manifestly clear.

  This is the same silliness that went behind all the liberalism that destroyed the main line church. Equivocating on the confession as to mean something other than what it means. Go do a historic survey on the Auburn Affirmation of 1923 in the Presbyterian Church U.S. and they (the liberals who denied orthodox reformed doctrine in favor for a more humanistic man centered approach) played the same games as you do. When I’m talking about the doctrines of the Westminster confession I mean them as the authors (puritan Westminster divines) meant them. No reinterpretation allowed here. Does the session know of such deceptive language that you use in regards to your stance on the Confession?

  Little Toe says:
  

  I can't help but be pragmatic, rather than dogmatic…. You see, in my case it's cardial, not just cerebral.
  In my case my reliance in on the Lord, not men.
  Evangelism is a call, not something that you can learn from a book.

  You have little regard for the regulative principle for SCRIPURE NOT PRAGMATISM is the guide for evangelism. Contrary to your mystical intuitive claim, evangelism is something you can learn from a book. Primarily the bible and the book of Acts and other books in the bible. You are also instructed on evangelism by others in the church and if they use means of God gifted teachers who write books then so be it. All this is in the context of the church described in Eph 4.
  Eph. 4:12
  

  12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

  
  Little to trust the Lord as you say you do means to abandon your mystical pragmatist humanistic intuition and study the bible
  Ps 19: 7-8
  

  7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
  The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
  8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
  The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

  blessings,
  jr
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Sup Dawg,

  There are three churches in your area

  1. Calvery Presbyterian (PCA) in Glendale on Glendale Blvd.
  2. Grace Community church (it is a bit legalistic and not an good representation of calvinistic dictrine though) On Rosco Blvd. in the Valley.
  3. Redeemer Presbyterian in Encino, CA it is off of Burbank BLVD.

  Go to the directeries here

  http://www.opc.org

  http://www.gracechurch.org

  http://www.faithdefenders.com

  Bob Moray (of Faith Defenders) also pastors a church in your area
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Little Toe writes:
  

  Waiting has contributed to a thread with the aforementioned title, giving sparce details of her religious background.
  I am in no position to question her profession of faith, beyond her willingness to contribute to this thread. Are you really able to confirm that she isn't a Christian?

  
  Well I’ll let Waiting answer that with her own words
  

  Now? NEVER will I join another church - I've concluded I don't make good religious church decisions. Otherwise, I prefer the comfort and freedom of being an agnostic - just accepting I don't know everything.

  Little Toe writes:
  

  If you want to condemn me for "compromised docrinal standards" then you'd best do two things:
  1. Find out what my standards are, because you haven't the foggiest idea what I believe in.
  2. Find out what my standards were.

  Since you have given an oath to the Free Church then your doctrinal standards are supposed to be the statement of faith contained in the Westminster Standards. But as you seem to reveal that may not be the case. Lets go back to page 5 of this thread and see what you have written.
  Little makes this statement in regards to the WCF
  

  Whilst I appreciate the Westminster Confession of Faith (also the Institutes, and Berkhoff's Systematic Theology) I hold it as a subordinate standard to the inspired word, as I imagine you do yourself.
  You will not bludgeon me with the Confession, nor any word of man.

  Now when you say you “ appreciate the Westminster Confession of Faith “ now is that an affirmation that: (choose one)
  1. You do strictly subscribe to the Westminster Standards,
  2. You strongly hold to the Westminster standards but have a couple of exceptions.
  3. You Loosely Hold to the confession, but have other theological views that may conflict with the Westminster Standards.
  4. The Westminster is helpful and you do appreciate the standards but it is not your personal doctrinal standard.

  My request is for Little to disclose what exactly what he holds to in relationship to the confession of the faith

  Little Toe posted:
  

  You quote Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" and then proceed to sit in judgement.
  You judge, not only others, but also me. So, from what you know of me, do you presume to know more than the two kirk sessions that met with me earlier this year?
  (One for baptism and one for going forward to the Lord's table?)
  The church I attend is staunch, and in the heart of Presyterianism.
  Do you presume to know more than God, who called me?

  I was using decrement (you complaint was judgment) in regards of the likes of Bona, Plum, RR, just2laws and others. As far as your session goes have you disclosed any of your views that you have shared on this thread with the session. I would like to know what your session would think of some of the remarks on this thread and others by those whom you seem so eager to defend as your brothers and sisters in Christ. Would they make the same assessment as you? Second what would your elders think of your defense of these people and would they agree? From this point on I am going to forward this thread to my church (Providence Orthodox Presbyterian Chapel of Castro Valley, CA: A mission work of First Orthodox Presbyterian Church San Francisco, CA) I am going to get their feed back on this discussion.

  Little Says:
  

  Faith is, after all, a fruit of the Spirit and hence implies that the one professing faith has been born of the Spirit (1 Cor.12:3).
  Hearing the word does not always involve going to a church building, as I was convicted by reading the word in my own lounge.

  Not too much of a problem here but the point of James 1:18 is still demonstrated even in your own conversion. Yet the church is the primary means to deliver the saving message that regenerates man. The church is the only place that has the proclaimed word of God that is preaching is only found in the church. That is the church not just a building sends forth heralds that bring the gospel in Preaching in the Lord’s Day, it’s Christian education programs, it’s evangelism, it is the church that brings forth the Kerygma of God’s word through preaching primarily and other ordained means. The word can never be separated from the church for the church was born out of the word and subject to the word, just as you cannot separate a parent (word) and child (church) relationship. So when you read the word of God on your own you are whether you like it or not you are still associating yourself with God’s church whether in covenant relationship or not. For it is God’s word that created the church and it is God’s word that exclusively belongs to the church.

  Little writes:
  

  Yet you single-mindedly fail to quote Pauls words regarding the continued battle with falled flesh (Rom.7).

  I did point out that the Christian and only the Christian does have an on going battle with sin. You should go back and reread my previous post. Now as to the fact that I failed to post Romans 7 I truly apologies for that is a biblical truth that I totally rejoice in and it is a truth that all Christians should be grounded in. Romans 7 is a joyful relief from the legalism and false perfectionism of the WT. But my intention was to never to suppress a vital truth such as this for I owe much of my Christian joy to this passage and to charge that I would keep this passage on the down low is just silly and ludicrous.

  For all Christian to take to heart you have been free now fight the good fight.
  Romans 7
  

  1Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
  4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[1] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

  Struggling With Sin

  7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
  11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
  14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
  21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
  So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

  Little says,
  

  You then state that I psychobabble, because I disagree with your dogmatic statement that a Christian will immediately attend church. You seem to believe that the regeneration will make one immediately succumb to the mind of Christ in every aspect of life.

  He will begin this work in succumb to the mind of Christ in every aspect of life. Not perfectly though but he will begin. You have to take into account 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 you cannot deny this passage.

  2 Cor 5:16-17
  

  16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

  Little Toe goes on to say:
  

  Darn, I stayed in the JW's for six months. Does that mean I wasn't converted???

  No, not necessarily. You could still be converted but just disobedient. Religions like JW’s or Romanism is no place for the Christian. Those who are converted to Christ in the JW religion have a moral obligation and must leave the Watchtower immediately.

  Little says:
  

  You also seem to disagree with my restatement of your archaic faith affirmation,

  This is the same affirmation that is found in my church and other churches of like mind like the Presbyterian Church of America the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Reformed Presbyterian Church, Reformed Church United States and probably even yours. I’m just being in line with the leadership of my church I think you should do the same. I suggest you should check out your Free Church book of order to see how “archaic” that faith affirmation really is.

  Little Toe says:
  

  The problem, as I see it, is that you don't evidence any real-world application of scripture and Theology, nor appear to grasp the key issues of modern-day evangelism. It appears that all your posts are taken out of books, as if that is the be-all and end-all.

  What do you mean when you say application of scripture and theology? Do you mean an approach of Pragmatism? Please explain. As far as “key issues of modern-day evangelism” go We have been instructed from the scriptures by the church as well as read fellow members of Christ’s church books and articles. How does one know the “key issues of modern-day evangelism? Do they know them intuitively? What’s wrong with Christian book? You are just learning from older and wiser Christians. Do you have a problem with that covenantal aspect of the church and our dependence of one another in learning and growing in the faith?

  Little stated:
  

  Whilst still a JW, more than a few years ago and before I became an Elder, a guy from the Free-Church made me stop and think.
  He asked me if I could truly be as bigoted as to think that I had all the answers and that only JW's would be judged aright?

  Anecdotal statements are not an effective means to communicate truthful and propisitional claims. just a thought.
  Little Toe said:
  

  You've railroaded your own thread into discussion of the role of the church in Christian life.
  This thread should really be moved to "Belief's". I suggest that you ask Simon to move it.

  There are many threads in the Friends folder that that evolve into different topics than the original. Why move this particular one? Is it because you want to suppress something? Why can you be more consistent and call for all threads that develop new topics in your eye to be moved to the appropriate Folder? Could it be that you are falling behind the eight ball in this conversation and your conscience is being convicted about capitulating to worldly standards and being called out in the matter?

  Pragmatism is not the answer.

  see you soon Lord willing,
  jr

  This post is brought to you by books on biblical evangelism from John Piper and J.I. Packer

  

  
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  I growing more afaid that according to Little's compromised docrinal standards. LittleToe would consider Waiting a bible beliving born again Christian.

  Just a "Little" nervious,

  jr
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Little asks:
  

  To your mind, at what point does one become saved?
  (being effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, etc.)

  I believe it is at the point of justification. Justification is not only the point where God declares you righteous based on the merit of Christ, that is the book is officially and eternally stamped (saved) at the time of justification. Justification is where the eternal decree in regards to ones personal election comes to pass and the redemptive benifits of the covenant of grace personally begin. It’s at this point (justification) where charges against sin are dropped.

  Romans 8:33-34
  

  33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

  One unique thing about justification by faith alone is that only God can justify the wicked Rom. 4:5 If man were to exercises the same manor in jurisprudence it would be a manor of abomination in the sight of the Lord. The wicked must be punished!

  Duet. 25:1
  

  When men have a dispute, they are to take it to court and the judges will decide the case, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty.

  Our jurisprudence must be consistent in condemning the wicked Duet. 25:13-16; Proverbs 11:1; 20:10,23

  Is God inconsistent in letting the guilty go? NO, because these guilty has place their faith (a gift from God) in Jesus and Jesus is punished as guilty on the cross for the sins that they (the sinners who place their faith in Jesus) are charged with.

  Little goes on:
  

  Is it the point at which they:
  a) exercise saving faith.
  b) start delving into the living word.
  c) accept certain doctrines.
  d) attend church.
  Is it not at the point they exercise saving faith?
  Are they not at this point ajoined to the body of Christ?
  Are they not at this point our spiritual siblings?

  This will take some time in understanding true conversion. When one is “exercising saving faith”, trusting Jesus this is a gift from God. When one is converted he is converted by God through the means of His word primarily by preaching.

  James 1:18
  

  18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first-fruits of all he created.

  faith does not come from us but from God and His word
  

  17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

  
  Through this vehicle of the word God REGENERATES MAN man does not make himself regenerate or born again but this action only rests on Jehovah God.

  John 1:13
  

  13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

  John 3: 3-9
  

  3Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
  4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
  5Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again.' 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

  The most convincing passage I think is this Ephesians passage

  Eph 2:1-5
  

  1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

  Philippians 1:29
  

  For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

  So then it is no doubt that true saving faith comes from Jesus. Only those who are regenerated can have faith. Regeneration precedes faith and repentants. . Only the regenerate can choose Christ for salvation. Only those who are truly regenerated by God unto faith and justification will grow in sanctification and holiness. When one is saved (justified, and that is only the regenerate) sin has no dominion over him/her.
  Romans 6:1-6
  

  1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
  5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[1] that we should no longer be slaves to sin

  Look Paul is making an apodictic statement that sin will not have dominion to those who have been saved by grace alone.

  Romans 6:14
  

  14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

  So If Plum is saved as you say she is then she will immediately and progressively grow in holiness and sanctification and her forsaking sin, battling her flesh the world and the devil. Look don’t freak out I am not talking about perfectionism but merely the common every day battles of the normal Christian life. A Christian will sin occasionally but only the Christian has the ability to fight sin and temptation and will occasionally defeat sin and temptation It is an every day battle. The unbeliever has no power against sin and sadly gives into sin after sin until he gets worse and worse morally. Again only the Christian has the ability to grow in holiness and to mortify his own sinful desires the unbeliever doesn’t. So plum should be growing in this area. I’m not saying she should be perfect or mature in this area just that she is growing. Remember the vines in John 15

  John 15:1-8
  

  1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
  5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

  
  Little says:
  

  Whether, or not, they have taken the step of attending a church may have little relevance to their profession, at this point.
  You surely haven't forgotten the fact that the conditioning that many received as JW's will have affected their view of church?

  The scriptures render your point irrelevant. As to their conditioning that they received as JW’s your claim is just a bunch of psychobabble. When one is regenerated he is a new creature in Christ and will begin to live and think as a new person in Christ.
  2 Corinthians 5:16-17
  

  16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

  Also you pointed out the irrelevance of attending church in relation to ones conversion to Christ. Unfortunately this runs against the doctrine of Union with Christ for all the saved. You see at salvation one is united to Christ and all his benefits that also includes Christ’s church. So we find a local covenant body of believers because we are consistent and true to that union. Little, only those who are alienated from Christ stays and remains outside the church.

  Eph 2:12
  

  12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

  Now those who are united in Christ by faith are now part of the covenant community and must join local church. It is part of who he/she is as a Christian.
  Eph 2:13
  

  13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

  
  And where else is the blood of Christ proclaimed but the church where Christians belong.
  Up to this point I guarantee you that every one in your session at will agree with these points.

  Little rewrites the faith affirmation this way:
  

  Just to simplify your questions, although others may prefer them phrased a different way: 1. Do you believe the bible is the word of God?2/3. Do you believe that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour?4. Do you, on reflection, realise the benefit of associating with fellow Christians?

  The problem here is that you have down graded the content of this affirmation. Frankly a Mormon can look at your reaffirmation statement and agree to it and yet Mormons are not Christians for they deny Christ with their doctrines. In fact I can show this downgraded affirmation to a JW at the door and he will affirm such a vacuous statement. As long as it doesn’t have content as to define positions and draw the line in the sand anyone can affirm such a statement.

  As Cool Hand Luke would say “I think we have a problem of communication here”. Even worse, I think we are equivocating on the matter. Lets put forth our definitions as to make are positions clear and our meanings well defined from this point out.

  That is all for now.

  AChristian and Plum, I will address your points latter on today.

  Peace,
  Jr

  This post has been brought to you by: James Montgomery Boice’s book- Standing on the Rock : Upholding Biblical Authority in a Secular Age. And R.C. Sproul's book-Chosen by God

  
  
  
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  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Wow there is a lot for me to respond to. I would like to give thanks for aChristian for his contrabution and his reflection I do understand where he is comming from and I hope I can communicate or at least interact with his thoughtful critisism. Also LiitleT, don't be so aprehensive I will formulate a doctrine of conversion that will best be faithful to the scriptures and reflect the thought of those who came before me but only to the point that is most faithful to the scriptures. I hope that my answers forthcomming will satisfy your objections and that you will help me by being a good Berean and checking my exegitical, biblical, systematic and apologetical formulation with the word of God to make sure that I have been faithful in my duties in explaining from the scriptures a compitent and sound, biblical and reformed doctrine of conversion.

  Plum I do thank you for your return to this thread and will be looking forward to interacting with you again.

  I will resume tomarrow by addressing some of the resent comments that where made.

  But for now a Book advertiesment. A very Historical book from the 1920's that has still impacted our modern day evangelicalism.

  

  blessings,
  jr
• 
  169

  X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

  by clash_city_rockers in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi folks,.

  i'm just sort of taking role call to all those x-dubs who are now brothers and sisters in christ.

  i think it is wise for us to rise up and be counted so that we know who each other are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Little Toe puts it we:
  

  The church is, indeed, a place where we can be helped to mature. That is one of the prime benefits of fellowship.
  The coal that lies outside of the fire is the one that will most quickly go out.

  To kind of improve on a good point it should be said that “the church is THE place” The church is were Christ’s covenant people live. If Plum and Bona are one of the Elect as you claim then they should be members of a bible believing church

  Little points out
  

  This, however, is not a church. It's an online meeting place for thousands of people who have been hurt and damaged by an "evil slave".

  Great point. Your further comment about “many have become (bible believing) Christians” I will not comment on.

  As far a Plum and Bona are concerned I think one element is missing in this conversation and that is their confession of Christ. If they are Christians then they should confess Christ and the absolute truthfulness of the bible if that’s so and they do confess and are bible believing Christians then my biggest apologies.

  Plum and Bona,
  If you truly confess and believe the fallowing then I truly do except you as sisters in Christ and please except my apology for be hard on you guys.
  1. Do you believe the Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, to be the Word of God, and its doctrine of salvation to be the perfect and only true doctrine of salvation?
  2. Do you confess that because of your sinfulness you abhor and humble yourself before God, and that you trust for salvation not in yourself but in Jesus Christ alone?
  3. Do you acknowledge Jesus Christ as your sovereign Lord and do you promise, in reliance on the grace of God, to serve him with all that is in you, to forsake the world, to mortify your old nature, and to lead a godly life?
  4. Do you belong to a local bible believing church and submit yourselves in the Lord to the government of that church? In case you should be found delinquent in doctrine or life, to heed its discipline?

  Little if they truly affirm (with out crossing their fingers) this then your defense of them is vindicated and I owe you a big apology and welcome Bona and Plum with the fullness of joy as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

  Andi says:
  

  No matter what I do or say with clash, I don't think he will ever see my point. I don't know if he will ever have the humility to ask for it kindly either.

  For someone who claims not to be judgmental that sure was a judgmental statement. Personally I don’t mind and I glad you are trying to make decerning personal judgments. Andi, I’m just reminding you of the Lordship of Christ and that you can’t accept Christ (which is not my charge against you) with out his word the bible and that Christian’s take the word seriously even to the point where they are saturated with scripture and glory in His redemption of his people and this consistently overflows in their common conversation. A good example is Angie, I pray there will me more men and women like her on this board. This is just a reminder. If you are a Christian then remember who you belong to. As far as your criticisms of me, I do thank you for your comments and I will most definitely take them to heart.

  BTW: Dirty pictures are not becoming of a Christian it is not loving to your neighbor. And as a Christian I’m sure you totally believe in the 10 commandments. Andi isn’t it great that God has saved you and delivered you from idolatry and from anger, blasphemy, adultery and fornication, theftful heart and other sins that beset the ungodly. Is in it great that the Lord delivers people from sinful and evil lifestyles like being a drunken brawler, crooked thief, homosexuality, adultery and fornication and living with people their not married to, gang activity, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other sinful lifestyles. Praise the Lord. God even saves murderers, Amen.

  1 Cor. 6:9-11
  

  9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  I love that passage especially the phrase ”that’s what some of you were

  Remember who you belong to
  Eph 4:1
  

  1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

  Grace and Peace,
  jr