Posts by wizzstick

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

wizzstick

Of the two examples you've provided, one 'Yeh-hoo-ahh' is from Greg Stafford, and one 'I_Eh_ou_Ah' is from Gérard Gertoux? Is that right? In all honesty neither sound anything like Jehovah - which in itself is still a hybrid word.

If there was a correct pronunciation of the Divine Name we'd know it by now. The WT has it wrong. And that is important as they claim to be God's sole channel of communication.

By the way there is an review on Amazon of the book that maybe of interest to you:

Linguists recognise that in the evolution of a language, the vowels change more noticably than the consonents. For example, The short vowels of British Recieved Pronunciation are manifested as dipthongs or even tripthongs in many accents of the Southern United States. In 1940s Britain, the present [æ] phoneme was pronounced more like [e], and this is a time difference of only 60 years!!!

Anglo-Saxon words of 900 years ago, are recognised by etymologists as antecendents of Modern English primarily by their consonents, because vowels, semi-vowels, and glides change even from generation to generation. The Anglo-Saxon language of 900 years ago is a "foreign language" in that it has changed beyond recognition due to linguistic factors such as ablaut, semi-vocalisation, palatisation.

The fact that the name YHWH is made up entirely of slippery semi-vowels, and possibly aspirants, renders it very difficult for linguists to extrapolate an original form.

palatal [j] --- semi-vowel [y] --- vowel[i]

labiodental[v] --- biablial[β] --- semi-vowel[w] --- vowel[u]

(This demonstrates semi-vocalisation, palatisation and the forming of approximants)

Ablaut is shown in the gradual vowel changes of the Proto-Indo-European *[pod] to the Latin *[ped] to the authors own language French: 'pied' [pye] ('d' not reflected in modern pronunciation)

To be objective though, the change from PIE *[pod] to the Anglo-Saxon [fo:t] to our present pronunciation of 'foot' [fut] is less striking with regard to consonent preservation, but we still notice a general trend of vowel "slipperyness".

Ablaut (or apophony) is also demonstrated by the the pluralisation of 'man' to 'men' or that of 'goose' to 'geese'. This is common in Amharic, ANOTHER SEMITIC LANGUAGE.

ASSUMING that the Hebrew language underwent linguistic changes similar to Amharic, in the 1070 years between the first and last books of the Old Testanment (compared to the 900 years between Beowulf and the present literature), it is quite possible that many pronunciations of The Name came in and went out of use, especially in view of the Jewish prohibition of pronouncing the name.

Due to the ablaut of the unwritten and "un-pin-downable" vowels in Hebrew, the name Y.eH.oW.aH (Jehovah/Yehowah), could easily have been Y.aH.oW.eH (Yahweh/Yahoweh) or even hypothetical Y.iH.uW.H (Jihuβh) or iY.H.uW.H (Ihuh).

I appreciate the depth of research and reasoning that Gertoux has undertaken but i still believe from a linguistic point of view that is impossible to determine the original pronunciation of The Name and therefore any dogmatic attempts to support ANY of the varients are futile, even with the support of personal names such as Yehoshuah/Yahushuah/Yeshua.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

wizzstick

A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his head, which was tied by a blue ribbon, about which there was another golden crown, in which was engraven the sacred name [of God]: it consists of four vowels.

Josephus

So I can see the 4 vowels, but I can't find anyone suggesting it's pronounced "Yeh-hoo-ahh" aside from you? A bit of Googling reveals no one that I can find agreeing with your opinion on "Yeh-hoo-ahh".

Pronouncing the Tetragrammaton

I would suggest that anyone suggesting a particular way of pronouncing the tetragrammaton is just guessing.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

wizzstick

Thus Josephus says the Divine Name is pronounced as written, in Latin it has four vowels I, O, U, E, that is Jove which transliterated YHWH and pronounced in Hebrew "Yeh-hoo-ahh"

Can you name this source please?

At the end of the day, neither Jehovah or Yahweh is accurate but Yahweh is 'better' as it isn't a hybrid word.

On a side note, given you've ended up suggesting that the correct pronunciation is "Yeh-hoo-ahh" wouldn't a more accurate title to this thread be "Why Jehovah or Yahweh are both wrong"?

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

wizzstick

In summary, looking back to the mid-20th Century it was generally thought that Jehovah was a good translation of the Divine Name.

But in recent years there's been a noticeable swing to Yahweh as it is a more accurate rendering (but still a best guess).

So, in another example of the WT backing the wrong horse (see 607 as another example), they have a legacy issue that they'll have to sort out one day.

Yahweh's People anyone?

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

wizzstick

Vowel points of יְהֹוָה and אֲדֹנָי
The spelling of the Tetragrammaton and connected forms in the Hebrew Masoretic text of the Bible, with vowel points shown in red.
The table below shows the vowel points of Yehovah and Adonay, indicating the simple sheva in Yehovah in contrast to the hataf patah in Adonay. As indicated to the right, the vowel points used when YHWH is intended to be pronounced as Adonai are slightly different to those used in Adonai itself.

Hebrew (Strong's #3068)
YEHOVAH
יְהֹוָה Hebrew (Strong's #136)
ADONAY
אֲדֹנָי

י Yod Y א Aleph glottal stop

ְ Simple sheva E ֲ Hataf patah A

ה He H ד Dalet D

ֹ Holam O ֹ Holam O

ו Vav V נ Nun N

ָ Qamats A ָ Qamats A

ה He H י Yod Y

The difference between the vowel points of ’ǎdônây and YHWH is explained by the rules of Hebrew morphology and phonetics. Sheva and hataf-patah were allophones of the same phoneme used in different situations: hataf-patah on glottal consonants including aleph (such as the first letter in Adonai), and simple sheva on other consonants (such as the Y in YHWH)

Hebrew (Strong's #3068) YEHOVAH יְהֹוָה	Hebrew (Strong's #136) ADONAY אֲדֹנָי
י	Yod	Y	א	Aleph	glottal stop
ְ	Simple sheva	E	ֲ	Hataf patah	A
ה	He	H	ד	Dalet	D
ֹ	Holam	O	ֹ	Holam	O
ו	Vav	V	נ	Nun	N
ָ	Qamats	A	ָ	Qamats	A
ה	He	H	י	Yod	Y

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

wizzstick

Preface to the English Standard Version Bible

When the vowels of the word ’adonay are placed with the consonants of YHWH, this results in the familiar word Jehovah that was used in some earlier English Bible translations. As is common among English translations today, the ESV usually renders the personal name of God (YHWH) with the word Lord (printed in small capitals). An exception to this is when the Hebrew word ’adonay appears together with YHWH, in which case the two words are rendered together as “the Lord [in lower case] God [in small capitals].” In contrast to the personal name for God (YHWH), the more general name for God in Old Testament Hebrew is ’elohim and its related forms of ’el or ’eloah, all of which are normally translated “God” (in lower case letters). The use of these different ways to translate the Hebrew words for God is especially beneficial to the English reader, enabling the reader to see and understand the different ways that the personal name and the general name for God are both used to refer to the One True God of the Old Testament.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

wizzstick

To continue using the often repeated false assertion that Jehovah is inaccurate because of YHWH using vowel points of ADONAY and that the Catholic monk made a mistake is just propagating a tradition based on lack of appropriate research.

From Wikipedia article on Jehovah (bold mine):

According to a Jewish tradition developed during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the Tetragrammaton is written but not pronounced. When read, substitute terms replace the divine name where יְהֹוָה appears in the text. It is widely assumed, as proposed by the 19th-century Hebrew scholar Gesenius, that the vowels of the substitutes of the name—Adonai (Lord) and Elohim (God)—were inserted by the Masoretes to indicate that these substitutes were to be used. When יהוה precedes or follows Adonai, the Masoretes placed the vowel points of Elohim into the Tetragrammaton, producing a different vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יֱהֹוִה, which was read as Elohim. Based on this reasoning, the form יְהֹוָה (Jehovah) has been characterized by some as a "hybrid form",and even "a philological impossibility".
Early modern translators disregarded the practice of reading Adonai (or its equivalents in Greek and Latin, Κύριος and Dominus) in place of the Tetragrammaton and instead combined the four Hebrew letters of the Tetragrammaton with the vowel points that, except in synagogue scrolls, accompanied them, resulting in the form Jehovah.

Development

The most widespread theory is that the Hebrew term יְהֹוָה has the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי (adonai). Using the vowels of adonai, the composite hataf patah ֲ under the guttural alef א becomes a sheva ְ under the yod י, the holam ֹ is placed over the first he ה, and the qamats ָis placed under the vav ו, giving יְהֹוָה (Jehovah). When the two names, יהוה and אדני, occur together, the former is pointed with a hataf segol ֱ under the yod י and a hiriq ִ under the second he ה, giving יֱהֹוִה, to indicate that it is to be read as (elohim) in order to avoid adonai being repeated.

יֱהֹוִה is YHWH.

To get to Jehovah we latinize YHWH to JHVH.

Now we need vowels. These are inserted from adonai. Which was added for superstitious reasons.

Thus Jehovah is a hybrid word. A mixture of the latinized JHVH and the vowels from from adonai.

Of course if God REALLY wanted the whole world to know the correct way to pronounce his name, he could have ensured the whole world did know that one name. A name to run to in a time of distress. But he doesn't. That's why comparing it to Jehoshua, Jehoshaphat, Jehoadah, Jehoaddan, Jehoahaz, Jehoash etc is pointless. They are not the name of God. The name people need to call out to for saving.

Instead people have to choose between a best guess (Yahweh) or a made up name (Jehovah)!

Funny that eh?

174

The Bible is NOT Error-Free

by FusionTheism in

for many christians, the bible is viewed as the 100% error-free, perfect book straight from god, where every single word was carefully chosen by god for a reason.

but, usually, when you have a discussion on the topic, these christians will end up saying that only the original copies written directly from the hands of the prophets and apostles were error-free, and all manuscript copies since then are subject to copyist mistakes and other errors.. since zero original copies are in existence, how do we know the originals were error-free?

why should we think the originals should be error-free to begin with?

wizzstick

Not proving that the Bible is inspired does not invalidate it from being inspired.

So how does one 'validate' divine inspiration?

174

The Bible is NOT Error-Free

by FusionTheism in

for many christians, the bible is viewed as the 100% error-free, perfect book straight from god, where every single word was carefully chosen by god for a reason.

but, usually, when you have a discussion on the topic, these christians will end up saying that only the original copies written directly from the hands of the prophets and apostles were error-free, and all manuscript copies since then are subject to copyist mistakes and other errors.. since zero original copies are in existence, how do we know the originals were error-free?

why should we think the originals should be error-free to begin with?

wizzstick

When Paul wrote that All scripture is inspired, he meant that the preChristian writings got their ideas from events that had to do with God and his people of the past, along with the inspired prophets.

Really? Where is your evidence to support this claim? The Bible states:

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Seems a bit of a tall order to get all of that just from relaying events to do with God and his people!