notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered,having seven horns and seven eyes, and the eyes mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent out into the whole earth.
So where are the four living creatures?
Where are the elders?
The lamb?
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
You'd find it more rewarding and less painful to slam your head into a brick wall.
I pity them.
They've spent the last 24 hours desperately trying to find anywhere which might help but can only find a passage where people are using illustrative language. Whilst standing in a part of the temple which uses the wrong greek word!
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
No you haven't.
You're ignoring herion!
How does that fit with your claim?
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
It's very simple.
Where are these angels? Heaven or earth?
7:11 All the angels were standing around the throne and the elder and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God
So where are the great crowd then?
7:15 - That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them
The angels are before the throne. So that means they are in...?
The great crowd are before the throne - in his temple (naos). So that means they are...?
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
John 2:19
Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Jesus was speaking using illustrative language - by temple he was talking about himself and his resurrection after three days. Naos would be the correct word to use, not the word for the outer courtyards heiron.
The Jews didn't get what he was saying.
Which feels familiar.
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
Wizzstick I, unlike believer, have read your document. It simply and comprehensively using only the bible and Watchtower explains the great crowd in Revelation ( which is the one we are talking about, the relevant " Great crowd) is in the naos, or heaven .
Please can you post it on here as I have tried and cannot.
That's very kind of you..
It is very basic presentation, but when I made it I was determined only to use WT, Thayers, or the Bible:
The Great Crowd - Where are they?
Hope others might find it of some use.
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
In JW theology, the Great Crowd survives the Great Tribulation, so it is obvious in retrospect that these people were not of the Great Crowd.
Interesting point.
Here's something else to chew on.
Their being identified in 1935 as the great crowd of other sheep was an indication that the choosing of the 144,000 was then about complete."
Revelation, Its Grand Climax Now at Hand p.125
But then in 2007 the WT said:
As time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. Thus we cannot set a specific date for when the heavenly hope ends."
Watchtower 2007 May 1 p.31
If the anointed weren't sealed in 1935 then obviously it wasn't the right time to identity the Great Crowd. Which explains why all those ones have pretty much died out.
So - how does the WT know whether it should be calling the majority of JW's alive today as being of the Great Crowd? What if the sealing of the anointed isn't for another 100 years? Obviously then the JW's today aren't of the Great Crowd!
This is yet another legacy issue for the JW's. There is so much doctrine they need to re-invent with dollops of New Light.
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
At Revelation 7:9, the great crowd is not seen as being in heaven. Their “standing before the throne” of God does not require them to be in heaven. They are simply in the sight of God.
The WT certainly say this but they are even ignorant of the greek for 'standing' and 'before' or chose to ignore it. I suspect the latter.
Standing:
Revelation 7:9: ‘standing’ - the greek word here is hestōtes
Short Definition: I cause to stand, stand
The use of hestōtes in Revelation 7:9 is listed under Thayer’s II.1: ‘properly, a. followed by prepositions or adverbs of place
So the Great Crowd are standing before in a literal ‘proper’ sense,
Before:
The greek word here is enópios: in sight of, before
Short Definition: before the face of, in the presence of
Use of enopion in Rev 7:9.
How can the great crowd be stood in sight of the throne (where God is seated) and in sight of the Lamb (Jesus Christ - who is in heaven) and yet still be on Earth?
Use of enopion in Rev 7:11.
All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God,
In this scripture, all the angels are standing and fall before the throne and worship God.
Are they on Earth or in Heaven?
Same words as Rev 7:9, but in a different location? How does that work?
Here are more examples of enopion (before):
Revelation 1:4 - "seven spirits that are before (enopion) his [God's] throne, ...."So are all the above in heaven or on earth?
Revelation 4:5 - "seven lamps of fire burning before (enopion) the throne [of God], ...."
Revelation 4:10 - "the twenty-four elders fall down before (enopion) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before (enopion) the throne, ...."
Revelation 5:8 - "And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before (enopion) the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the means the prayers of the holy ones."
Revelation 8:3 - "And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before (enopion) the throne."
Revelation 9:13 - "And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before (enopion) God."
Revelation 11:16 – “And the twenty-four elders who were seated before (enopion) God ...."
notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
But after a while, it starts seeming more like a surreal, dystopian nightmare.
Rather like all religious beliefs.
