here is yet another update on what is going on in my world.
the elder i talked to a while back just couldn't let it be and now want's to have another discussion.
he now wants to meet with with another elder from the hall.
He Drew,
You changed your avatar. nice. Hope you´ll be able to say: Guys, This is the day you´ll always remember as the day you almost caught Drew sagan.
good to hear you´re wife is with you on this. It would be nice if she could be playing the submissive wife and have a tiime agreed only with you.
Thumbs up, Mate.
Cheers, Mate
Borgia
here is yet another update on what is going on in my world.
the elder i talked to a while back just couldn't let it be and now want's to have another discussion.
he now wants to meet with with another elder from the hall.
He Drew,
You changed your avatar. nice. Hope you´ll be able to say: Guys, This is the day you´ll always remember as the day you almost caught Drew sagan.
good to hear you´re wife is with you on this. It would be nice if she could be playing the submissive wife and have a tiime agreed only with you.
Thumbs up, Mate.
Cheers.
Borgia
someone asked me a question.
if you found yourself in 1939 sitting next to hitler, gun in hand and with no repercussions at all for yourself would you....................shoot him...........knowing all that he was going to do.. it really made me think..............first i said straight away yes, then no.
then after thinking about it for a while, i really didnt know.. could i physically shoot someone , even though i knew he would murder and torture millions of people?.
Back then, Hitler was in jail and writing his book "Mein Kampf". So, we´re left with Sober Joe running around in the 12cyl engine. As I said. The booze would have done the job nicely. Why waste a bullet? He´s glad, we´re glad. Win/ win situation.
There are many turning points in history. Start pondering on the ones who have been shot. MLK, JFK, you name them. By means of contrast: What would have happened with David if Abner had not been slain? Some have been taking out of this life without fulfilling their full potential. Others, who did it in the wrong fashion got that chance to ruin millions of lives. So what does that tell us? (Live´s a bitch?) 1. you can never be sure whether or not your action will have the desired response. (vendetta´s, kill bill, et all) 2. Suppose we start taking out all undesired elements subversive to our moral. Where would that leave us? This is not about a shoot out in selfdefence as a result of a violent confrontation. We´re talking about deliberately blowing ones living daylights out for the sake of possible millions of lifes which may be on the line. 3. Where are we going to draw a line?
Ever seen minority report? The concept is about fighting crime before it even happend........
Cheers
Borgia
here is yet another update on what is going on in my world.
the elder i talked to a while back just couldn't let it be and now want's to have another discussion.
he now wants to meet with with another elder from the hall.
Pressure Rising? You feel that way, Drew?
It ´s not them pressuring you but your goals you wish to achieve in a certain period of time. Is the misses with you all the way?
To me you have a few options, and I suppose I have thought of them as well, considering general intelligent nature of your posts.
Since I don´t know your time table I can´t really comment on any optional action.
Though, I shoud say there´s always the option of telling them you´re not interested in meeting them right now. Buys you time, everybody knows which cards are on the table though they´re blind. Be sure to unplug the telephone. So, what can they do? Raise some concerns during the local needs talk and perhaps mark you. Would that be killing you?
Besides, you can always use them for your own purposes. It all depends on playing your cards right. wanne talk? PM me.
Wish you luck with you game and don´t let them fool/ pinn you down. Keep moving. And thanks for sharing, mate.
Cheers
Borgia
someone asked me a question.
if you found yourself in 1939 sitting next to hitler, gun in hand and with no repercussions at all for yourself would you....................shoot him...........knowing all that he was going to do.. it really made me think..............first i said straight away yes, then no.
then after thinking about it for a while, i really didnt know.. could i physically shoot someone , even though i knew he would murder and torture millions of people?.
You´re talkin 1939. Right before Poland was under attack.
It would not have stopped the WWII. Germans and Russians back then were in bed together big time and the west did not have any other means than big words. However, it may have had a total different outcome. Hitler was solely responsible for loosing 1.000.000,= fighters and all the material that goes with it at Stalingrad. Why? he was aiming at a political victory instead of a military. By doing so, he weakened the military capability. Right after Stalingrad, the Germans and the Russians have fought the biggest tank battle in history. Obviously, Germans lost and could never recuperate from it.
Therefore, without his influence, the was outcome may have had a devastating effect. Just imagine the Russian army way back in Irkoets, the Krim in German hands (OIL), the military rescources thrown at the UK desert army from behind. It would have meant a Eurasian stronghold wich was hard to penetrate from the UK Island. By then, the US may have thought it better to consider not to embark on a second front.
Given the time the Germans needed to develop The Bomb, jetfighters, rockets and the like, I am alomst inclined to say, let´s be glad he had the chance to fuck up his options. But at the other hand, it may have evoked a German civil war as well. And history has taught us there´s nothing more destructive than a civil was. The wounds won´t heal.
So, what in its place is more preferable? Twisting the issue even more, would you rather have a short war with say 10 million dead instead of a longer war wich may deprive 50 million people of their rightfull life? Where does that leave one with moral affiliations like we seem to have? Is there, eventually merit in the goal santifying the means?
About Sober Joe, no, he isn´t worth a bullet. Give him a house with enough booze to permit him to enjoy a permant state of detachment to our more earthlier necesities and it would have done the job just fine with eventually the same outcome. Selfdestruction guaranteed.
To take and give live and death is a descretion we all take with us every day. To me, it seems to be a matter of defining where loyalties and responsibilities lie. There is good, there is bad and there is "Triskele" (celtic), doing a little bad thing for the right reasons may make the dead itself admissable. Consider the Coupe de Grace, crime passionelle, etc. I think live is full of such examples. It is a philosofy we even practise on our kids. We wouldn´t let them run accros the street in heavr traffic just for their free will, wouldn´t we.
And Uzzah, I know it a hollywood fairytale, but the story you relayed remebered me about Tears of the Sun. Yes, it only takes one bullet in many cases and I applaud the mans spirit to remember who he was. I would have had the same temptation. If you see him another time, convey my sympathies.
Cheers
Borgia
last week at the meeting, the po, who has very close connections to bethel, said that he never thought he would see the day that bethelites were being sent home.
he said that the biggest two reasons he thought bethel were cutting back, was automation and a massive decline in contributions.
looks like you're right metatron about the contribution aspect being their achilles heel.
Blondie, I basically agree with you. But who dare say no? What will a cong do if it can not live up to the expected quota? how will the branch act in such a case. They have officers to enforce a certain policy.
This is a gray area. Where "suggestions", "encouragement", "councel" and all the other proza are euphemistically used.
Apart from that, If they would ask my advice, I would say, go there. We will finally be better of, in time.
But that´s just me.
Cheers
Borgia
just because the watchtower society is wrong doesn't mean that there is no god, nor does it mean there is a god.
it would interesting to now how former members have adjusted thier cosmology, or whether they are now atheists and why.
i personally see religion as a more personal matter, rather than belonging to an organization.
No, I wouldn´t say so. The fact of the matter is that the discovery of being lied to, wasted time, wasted opportunities do have an inpact.
As others have stated already, critically looking at the believe system, the neccesity for it and much more have lead me to the point where I do feel something bigger must exists but it is hardly verifiable. So, I feel more agnostic than anything else. I have not discarded it all. Though a lot. But I do find religion, and especially the bible, fascinating.
Put into historical dimensions, people have always wanted to explain the bigger things in life. Now, als a society as a whole we have the means to make more discoveries than ever before and we find ourselves confronted with the truth of it: we are responsible for our own action and lethagy. There´s not something called security and conservatism. The sole aim of it contradicts everything in nature. Saying Satan has lead me. Sure. Your own desires have lead you. And when you want to see the devil, you´ll find him.
I´m not sure where my journey will lead me. To a certain extend, I would like to know that. But at the other hand, why would I. There are chances, opportunities in every period of life. You just need to recognize them and make use of them.
There´s a country in Europe where every year a celebration takes place on the 5th of december. It is called: SinterKlaas. Do not confuse it with Santa, although they share a few things in common.
Here´s a link: http://www.sinterklaas.nl/flash/stoompageindex.html.
If you think: He´s looks like a bishop, yes, your´re right. And it is amazing that a protestant/calvinistic country like the Netherlands it caught up every year in this celebration. May be it´s just a sign of their tolerance on other religions. I don´t know. What I do know is that the little kids all get exited about the presents they will get from SinterKlaas. however, in everyone´s life, there will come a time where the kid is confronted with the absolute truth: The gifts are not from SinterKlaas but from your family and relatives. The kid may have some problems over a period of some months with it. With the fact that he was lied to by his own parents for crying out loud; With the fact that something so cherished is absolute bogus, bullshit, wothless trash.
There are kids who find out themselves. They may tell other kids in their class. Then they are reproved for shocking to the core the little ones who still profess to believe in Sinterklaas. All parents say: it is such a nice celebration. SinterKlaas really exists, look, he´s entering the country this year in whatever small place by boat from Spain.
Yes, actually it is a n ice celebration, when you are up to recognizing the truth and not being manipulated by it anymore. Then you have the choice of not participating. And even when, it is of no concern. Just having a good time.
Being a witness have taught a thing or two. One, it was one step on the road to Christian Freedom. Two, I learned not to care to much about the opinion of others when it comes to my life and the way I want to live it. There a more things, but maybe, in a future point in time is a better occasion to disclose it.
But, as I have written in a previous post: It, the JW/ WT experience, has been a raft for crossing a river. Why hold on to it when it has served it purpose?
So, am I left with a shattered faith? No. Like the man said: it´s the ability to see the unseen based on facts demonstrated here and now. No way in hell, you can be succesfull without faith. Without faith you cannot hold on to your ideals. Faith in your own abilities. Faith in the fact that there´s badness, enmity, hatred and distrust. But also faith in the fact that there´s goodness, friendship and trustworthy people, out there, even under very bad conditions.
I was not maltreated by the JW/WT in the sense of so many others have already experienced. May be I will have my share of it later on. But it will not shatter my faith. It may make my life difficult for a time, but so be it. The world is a big playground.
What has been shattered, though, is the idiocy of being a blind trusting fool. And as long as I see fit, I´m having a good time and trying to play my cards right.
Cheers
Borgia
last week at the meeting, the po, who has very close connections to bethel, said that he never thought he would see the day that bethelites were being sent home.
he said that the biggest two reasons he thought bethel were cutting back, was automation and a massive decline in contributions.
looks like you're right metatron about the contribution aspect being their achilles heel.
Perhaps, they will announce a nw provision for contributions analogous to 3 John. In order to become fellow workers in the truth, as the NWT has it, they have the opportunity to shuff a new arrangement down the throat.
Perhaps a fee per congregation. Every region with a publishing branch will have to come up with a certain amount of money. This amount is divided between the number of publishers assigned to each cong. And there you´ll have it. A disguised religious tax.
Cheers
the concept that jehovah is only going to save jws always was an issue to me.
i could never understand how to reconcil such a concept with
2 peter 3:9;
Do you recall who Peter is adressing? Yes, he was talking to the congregation in general. So, With whom does God show patience? Not with the world outside, but the people inside the christian congregation. And by being patient with the Christians, all types of people may get saved.
This can only be reconciled with the outside world if we picture the writer of 2nd Peter to be in the opinion that the end was very near, during his lifetime. Counting since then, alledgedly 1900 odd years. What should one think of Gods patience. It must be of enourmous proportions. Of a magnitude we cannot possibly comprehend.....Or........the WT, as imperfect man they are, got their figures not quite right.....Deja vu?
Cheers
Borgia
in my attempt to make this issue as simplified as possible, i have set out to determine exactly wherein the wts' missing 20 years must be found (607 bc versus 587/86 bc).
i think i have done it, and i would like some confirmation/correction from alleymom, leolaia, narkissos and any others who consider themselves scholarly types.. first, using the kiss method alleymom posted some time back i regressed the accession years of the kings.
since the hillah stele astronomically confirms the first regnal year of nabonidus in 555 bc, and since the wts unqualifiedly agrees with this date (although they neglect to inform why they agree), nabonidus' accession year was 556 bc.
Stillajwexelder, dn´t you forget to mention the admonition to joyfully consider the abundance of fine spiritual food provided by the S-class?
Auldsoul, Did you take into account the 7 times of Nebu? No? oh, well, if you use the 3 day period of Jonah being in the fish, you´ll agree that it is a prophetic period, multiply this by seven and behold: there´s your 20 years. (yes, we don't count accension years for obvious reasons)
Spot on, man, another hole in the WT chronology. It start me wondering why Jesus, Paul, Peter, the Pharisees etc, have ever come up with an explanation like that. I mean Midrash has the ability to go to great lengths. But then again, it limits itself by the rule that the obvious explanation my not be taken away from the scripture or may contradict any other. Here´s for the 7 time "prophesy". Cut and dried.
cheers
Borgia
