Posts by cabasilas

5

607 website - part 5

by Jeffro in

part 5 in the series .

part 1: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118445/2082380/post.ashx#2082380.

part 2: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118507/2083398/post.ashx#2083398.

cabasilas

Thanks, Jeffro for this series! I appreciate the work you've put into this! I'm bookmarking these.

If some don't care for the subject they can ignore the thread.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

I agree with your post and that's an interesting construction of a more appropriate response from the WTS on the issue. I would still find it hard to believe, however, that it would have all been a misunderstanding. I think they knew what they were doing but did it to achieve a better relationship with various UN agencies to further their concerns about human rights (i.e., the persecution of JWs in various countries). But, that would be the best response they could have given.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

cabasilas

Thirdwitness,

I just want to recap a discussion we had earlier. You’d stated:

I, thirdwitness, share these ideals. Just what are those ideals of the UN?
“to maintain international peace and security; to suppress acts of aggression that threaten world peace; to encourage friendly relations among nations; to protect the fundamental freedoms of all peoples without discrimination based on race, sex, language, or religion ; and to achieve international cooperation in solving economic, social, and cultural problems."
Does the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses share those same ideals ? They most certainly do — and have done so for years before the UN formed! It is understandable why NGOs should share these same ideals, for the UN would not want to assist or help any organization which promotes contrary ideas.
Do you share these ideals? Or are you for war, discrimination, genocide, curtailing of freedom and liberties, religious intolerance etc etc?

I followed with these questions:

You highlighted some of the ideals and did not highlight others. Do you share the UN ideal to "maintain international peace and security" and "to acheive international cooperation in solving economic, social, and cultural problems"? Don't Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only God's Kingdom can do those things and that the UN is guilty of acting as a counterfeit of what only God's Kingdom can truly achieve?

In your next reply you tried to establish that associated NGOs could reject basic UN Charter ideals:

And as respects sharing the 'ideals of the UN' you are overlooking one little thing.

Even the 1996 resolution by the ECOSOC concerning an ECOSOC NGO’s support of the UN makes the following statement about that type of NGO (remember, the Society was not an ECOSOC NGO):
“3. The organization shall undertake to support the work of the United Nations and to promote knowledge of its principles and activities, in accordance with its own aims and purposes and the nature and scope of its competence and activities.”

Note that even an ECOSOC NGO, which is in a consultative relationship with the UN, isn't even obligated to support all the work of the UN . It says its support must be “in accordance with its own aims and purposes”. This means that the particular ECOSOC NGO would not support all the aims of the UN, but only those “aims and purposes” in the “scope of its competence and activities.”

In my next reply I took issue with your interpretation:

There's a difference between supporting the "work of the UN" and agreeing to support the ideals of the UN Charter. A particular NGO might object to a facet of a certain programme being undertaken by one of the agencies of the UN. But, basic to its affiliation would be support for the basic ideals of the UN Charter. An affiliated NGO cannot pick and choose which ideals of the UN Charter it will accept and which ones it will reject. Implicit with affiliation with the DPI/UN was a committment to support the UN Charter's ideals--all of them. Now, an affiliated NGO might object to a particular "work" of the UN--such as support of abortion rights or some other controversial issue. That does not permit an affiliated NGO to reject basic UN Charter goals, however.

Going back to those basic ideals of the UN Charter. The complete listing is here:

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter1.htm

The Purposes of the United Nations are:

1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

3. To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and

4. To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

Think about this: You said you believed an associated NGO could be permitted to reject some of these ideals. Do you believe that an NGO which supported genocide or slavery or rejected human rights would be allowed to associate with a part of the UN because it would be “in accordance with its own aims and purposes ” ? Could a neo-Nazi NGO affiliate with the DPI of the UN? There is no “loophole” to allow for associated NGOs to pick and choose which ideals of the Charter they accept.

Your website cites page 6 of a 1994 brochure of the UN/DPI which asks the question: "Who are eligible for association with DPI? Non-profit organizations which..." See here:

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/thechangingworldofngos.html

Yet, it does not cite page 7 of the same 1994 brochure which can be found here:

http://www.randytv.com/secret/DPI%20NGO%20Brochure%201994%20page%207.jpg

Page 7 goes on to say of these associating organizations: "can prove during the initial 2 years of association with DPI, that they support the United Nations by featuring U.N. information in their publications and outreach activities."

From Internet Archive is this link dated June 19, 1997 which contains the brochure "NGOs and the Department of Information." (This site says the brochure was published in October, 1995):

http://web.archive.org/web/19970619033202/http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/brochure.htm

As to reponsibilities of those associating with the DPI, it says:

http://web.archive.org/web/19970619033202/http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/brochure.htm#responsibilities

"Since the founding days of the United Nations in San Francisco, NGOs have made valuable contributions to the international community by drawing attention to issues, suggesting ideas and programmes, disseminating information and mobilizing public opinion in support of the United Nations and its specialized agencies. Association with DPI constitutes a commitment to that effect. Associated NGOs are expected to devote a portion of their information programmes to promoting knowledge of the United Nations' principles and activities. They are also expected to keep the DPI/NGO Section abreast of their activities by regularly providing samples of information materials." (Emphasis added)

Press releases from the DPI in 1992 stated this: "To be granted association with the DPI, NGO's must have national or international standing, support the Charter of the United Nations, have a broadly based membership and possess the resources necessary for effective outreach." See:

http://www.randytv.com/secret/feb92dpia.jpg http://www.randytv.com/secret/feb92dpib.jpg http://www.randytv.com/secret/aug92dpic.jpg

This same terminology used in 1992 was used in the 2001 letter from the UN DPI which explained the disassociation of the Watchtower Society ("support and respect for the principles of the Charter of the United Nations"):

http://www.randytv.com/secret/unfax.jpg This apparently is how the UN DPI viewed things as early as 1992, as the above cited press releases indicate. Did the Watchtower Society really misunderstand all of this?

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

cabasilas

Thirdwitness,

It's the continued linking to your own site that could be perceived as a problem. It's not usually allowed on most boards. I'm not really bothered by it but I have to admit it is tiresome. Most people are put off by cut and paste replies.

Having said that...I agree with you that some people should not allow their frustration to show through. There's no need to have the conversation degenerate. If someone does not like discussions like this then go to other threads.

At any rate I'd like to ask the administrators to please leave this thread up. I want to start using it to work towards developing a webpage that answers Thirdwitness' argumentation point by point. So, it'd be helpful to have these pages accessible. Thanks!

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

cabasilas

Agreed. This is not the place for self-promotion.

I've never said that the DPI/UN was any part of a conspiracy. To paint it like that is to make an easy straw man to destroy. You have admitted that this was much more than just getting a library card. My personal opinion is that this was an attempt to get some good PR with different agencies of the UN with the hope of eventually getting help on human rights issues as it related to Witnesses. A good strategy, actually.

3

For those who knew Bethelites from Oregon in the 70s

by cabasilas in

jw
friends

are there some here who knew various bethelites who were from oregon in the early and mid-70s?

i was from eastern oregon and was in brooklyn and wt farm from 73 to 76 and knew several from the portland area.

i don't want to mention names but if you knew some from that era (or are one of them yourself), i'd like to talk to you.

cabasilas

Just checking to see if there are any ex-Bethelites from Oregon from that period...

If so, drop me a PM. Thanks!

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

cabasilas

This means that the particular ECOSOC NGO would not support all the aims of the UN, but only those “aims and purposes” in the “scope of its competence and activities.”

Thirdwitness,

Re-edited answer:

There's a difference between supporting the "work of the UN" and agreeing to support the ideals of the UN Charter. A particular NGO might object to a facet of a certain programme being undertaken by one of the agencies of the UN. But, basic to its affiliation would be support for the basic ideals of the UN Charter. An affiliated NGO cannot pick and choose which ideals of the UN Charter it will accept and which ones it will reject. Implicit with affiliation with the DPI/UN was a committment to support the UN Charter's ideals--all of them. Now, an affiliated NGO might object to a particular "work" of the UN--such as support of abortion rights or some other controversial issue. That does not permit an affiliated NGO to reject basic UN Charter goals, however.

As I've said before I was saddened when the publicity came out on this. I think this development was a good thing for the WT Society even if it did violate its basic tenets.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

cabasilas

Repost for ThirdWitness:

You highlighted some of the ideals and did not highlight others. Do you share the UN ideal to "maintain international peace and security" and "to acheive international cooperation in solving economic, social, and cultural problems"? Don't Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only God's Kingdom can do those things and that the UN is guilty of acting as a counterfeit of what only God's Kingdom can truly achieve?

Do you share those ideals?

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

cabasilas

It appears thirdwitness' site is getting publicity by various JW sites. A suggestion: we set up a site that carefully and thoroughly counters his/her arguments using some of the best of this thread.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

cabasilas

I, thirdwitness, share these ideals. Just what are those ideals of the UN?
“to maintain international peace and security; to suppress acts of aggression that threaten world peace; to encourage friendly relations among nations; to protect the fundamental freedoms of all peoples without discrimination based on race, sex, language, or religion; and to achieve international cooperation in solving economic, social, and cultural problems."

You highlighted some of the ideals and did not highlight others. Do you share the UN ideal to "maintain international peace and security" and "to acheive international cooperation in solving economic, social, and cultural problems"? Don't Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only God's Kingdom can do those things and that the UN is guilty of acting as a counterfeit of what only God's Kingdom can truly acheive?