Posts by Shawn10538

46

Thank you, Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society!

by David_R in

i wanted to say thank you to the wbts for enforcing a 'no-contact' rule on all those that have left the organization.. only by experiencing first-hand my former best-friends treating me like a complete stranger (see 'garbage') for standing up for my own beliefs was i finally able to tell the society 'good-bye' forever and not feel guilty about it.. i know this was not the wbts's intention from the alienation practice.

it's intention was to make me feel guilty and lonely enough to come back to them.

however, it has backfired on them and finally given me my freedom.. thank you, society, for lacking kindness and understanding.

Shawn10538

Amen to that bro~

7

Conference call lures in active Witnesses!

by kool aid man06 in

jw
friends

the live telephone conference call is attracting many participants, including active jehovah's witnesses.

interested people from all over the world are dialing up early and staying on late.

the rapidly changing doctrines of the watchtower org.

Shawn10538

is it still on? It's 8pm here in CA, and I'm on hold.

31

Definitions of Faith

by Shawn10538 in

jw
friends

i just had an interesting conversation, though frustrating, with a student about the subject of faith.

i have never heard a definition for faith that i could understand.

every conversation i have had on the subject has only fallen short of establishing what it is.

Shawn10538

Since I'm not able to start new topics right now for some reason, I thought I'd revisit some old ones.

What I want to add to this thread is that the illustration of having faith that the sun will come up tommorrow does not work. One does not need faith nor does anyone have faith that the sun is coming up tommorrow because, the sun does not really come up or move in any way that we can discern by simple sight. It is a metaphor. Thanks to our current understanding of the universe it no longer technically makes sense to believe that the sun is rising. What is really happening as we all know is that the world is spinning. We can observe the world spinning by simply looking up at the sky and noticing the stars moving as we rotate in space. If we watch the world spin to such a position that we can no longer see the sun, we can continue to observe the world spinning by wathcing the stars move as we spin. Therefore as long as the sun doesn't disappear (I mean disappear from everyone's view, even the view of people on the other side of the planet, like if the sun explodes or something, it will be there when WE come around again.)

So, no faith is needed in the sun rising tommorrow because at no time has the sun been out of sight from humans in general (and other beings of course too.) There is always someone watching the sun. We could call them on our cell phones and ask them if the sun has exploded or not. If not, then the sun is still there and we are on our way around to see it again. If we noticed that the world has stopped spinning by noticing that the stars have stopped moving, then we will know that the people on the other side of the planet are being scorched to death, and that soon, we will on this side of the planet freeze to death. No need for faith when the sun is present and observable 24/7 and our spinning is observable 24/7. At no moment is the sun ever out of our sight. If it blows up we will see it happen, or feel its effects very quickly. No need for faith to believe that the sun is "coming up" tommorrow.

My suspicion is still that faith does not exists. It is an imaginary concept that is impossible to define in any consistent universal way. The "need" to have faith was commanded by whoever wrote the Bible. Before that, faith was never a concept, did not exist. After the idea of faith came in from Bible writers (whatever the original idea actually was we'll never know as this thread has pointed out - we can never decide on a consistent definition of the concept, so in other words, if faith exists, we don't know it exists, and we don't know what it is) faith still did not really exist but as a muddled confused concept.

It is just as likely that the true definition of faith is either lost forever or it never existed in the first place. Or perhaps that the Magic Tonic salesmen who were trying to sell people on the Jesus Brand, were just trying to come up with a conversation stopper and thought stopper so that arguing with them would become impossible and they would walk away from every doubter or cynic feeling like they won the argument no matter what the argument was and no matter what the facts actually were.

The same thing I believe about faith is the same thing I believe about god. If we can't define god consistently, then we don't know what god is, and we can't have a conversation about god if no two people can come up with a consistent definition of god. In other words, when I say Chevy, you think Dodge and someone else thinks Toyota, and so it goes. Sure we may all be talking about cars, except for those people who picture a motorcycle, and people who have never seen a car will picture a donkey driven cart, but we all have a totally different pictures in our heads. Who is to say which one is right? Or, if you are not brave enough to face the idea that there simply is no god at all, you might try to say that all the pictures of god are correct. Then what about the conflicting beiefs about god? Can opposites both be true? Can god give 72 virgins to muslim extremists and give harps to Christians? Reward Muslims with virgins while at the same time torturing them in hell for not accepting the divinity of the Christ?

Some people are going to be right about god, and some people must be wrong about god. No two people believe in the same god. I suspect that most people actually see a bearded man with a robe and sandals every single time they hear the word god. Whatever we pictured in our heads when we were infants and first exposed to the idea of god (maybe as kate as the teens) is what we still picture in our heads today as an adult, I'm willing to wager. Faith was an invention, exactly like I suspect, to squash inquiry and to obscure truth.

230

"Why does America always bomb other countries?", my son asked tonight.

by digderidoo in

jw
friends

first of all i do not want to turn this into an american bashing thread, that is not my intention at all.. i would like to hear americans opinions as to what my thirteen year old son asked me tonight.. on the way back from swimming tonight my two sons (13 and 11) and myself started talking about wars.

my 11 year old was the first to bring it up talking about wwi & ww2.

we had an interesting conversation about it, then the subject got onto nuclear bombs.

Shawn10538

Why are we so good at coming up with reasons to drop bombs, or coming up with apologies for war. but when it comes to reasons to not make war or drop bombs, we are sorely lacking? As the last few years have shown, it is very easy to convince a nation to run headlong into a war. It's like we are constantly with our fingers on a hair trigger ready to pull it when it comes to war, but as for reasons to maintain peace, we are always short on those reasons.

As this thread has proved, reasons to drop bombs are never in short supply. Reasons for peace, we don't have many.

21

Not sure what to do - Not "in" and not "out"

by Alexia in

long story short: forgive my grammar, im in a hurry!.

i grew up as a jw by my mother who was baptized about two years before i was born.

my dad studied but was a severe (really severe) alcoholic and my older brother studied but was never really into it.

Shawn10538

I wish you well. It sounds to me like you have never realy been a Witness. You have lived a double life from before during and after your baptism from what I read. You have never been really honest about who you are to your mother. Don't you want to not be a hypocrite just once in your life? Put milder, don't you want to be true to yourself for once in your life? you have your mother, but only by a lie. Do you really have her then? It sounds lke some co-dependency is going on there, not open, honest, unconditional love.

Then again you do have to realize that your mother is in a cult, and you are obviously not healed from being a cult member yourself. If you force a confrontation you will lose her - she will choose her religion over you. I have no doubt about that. But if you really take this time of indecision to educate yourself on the beliefs of JWs and what us critics have to say, you can craft an exit plan for yourself and your mother. You can start dropping subliminal messages on her and try to gradually undermine her faith. Don't feel bad about doing that if JWs are not the truth, she is living a lie herself. Help her to see the lies of the WT. Slowly. Also, you should become the best daughter you know how to be. Not by going to the meetings, but by really trying to connect with her in non-JW ways. help to create Non-JW good times that you both can share without lying to one another.

51

What was the most stupid word in Dub literature or Kingdom Melodies???

by Alpaca in

jw
friends

i remember a wt with the word "happifying".

now that's really stupid!!

!.

Shawn10538

Strife

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

Shawn10538

How did finally free get into my account and post it here????!!!!! something's fxxxed up.

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

Shawn10538

Sadly, a large percentage of cult members return to the cult. I don't know the exact figure, but it is a fairly well established fact. (20% maybe?) So, it is to be expected that a few people will see this board and still go back anyway. It doesn't seem like this person is very well read. She is not knowledgeable about JW doctrines at all, and as she stated she only flipped through C of C. So, is she really interested in truth? Obviously not. She is not being honest about why she wants to go back. It certainly isn't because she thinks JWs are the true religion. She is plagued with partial sound bytes from JWs years ago. She is not up to date at all. This seems like a clear case of a person believing what they want to believe because they are not mature enough emotionally to handle the cold hard facts.

Renei. here's what you are looking forward to:

Dying from refusing a blood transfusion
One of your children or grandchildren dying for refusing a blood transfusion
Not being able to speak your mind about what you really believe if it is contrary to what the FDS tells you to believe
No birthdays
No holidays
Field service
3 of the most boring meetings on the planet earth
You won't go to college
you must confess your sins to elders
If you mess up again you will be disfellowshipped again
Expecting the end of the world is just around the corner
new definitions of the word "generation."
New stances on Sodom and Gomorrah
No more oral sex
No more anal sex
Can't play with your own clitoris
New dates for the end of the world
Worshipping a god who kills infants because their parents are bad people
The Watchtower and Awake magazines
Fighting like mad to keep dissenting information out of your head
Being part of an organization who was a member of the Wild Beast of Revelation and who lied about it
Feeling guilty that you are nevr good enough
Being in a cult that you can't escape from without losing your family that is still in
No more Satanic music
Not being able to associate freely with worldlty friends or family
Not being part of worldly family's celebrations
Becoming distant with your unbelieving mate because he just doesn;t understand your cult
Being part of an organization that protects child molesters
Elders who think they have the right to investigate felonies (child abuse) and don't see the need to involve the police
Being part of the group that sold Miracle Wheat
Being part of the group that denied vaccines causing hundreds of people to die from small pox
Knowing that whatever the governing body says, no matter how ridiculous YOU MUST BELIEVE IT
Someone else take over...

54

Evolution is a religious teaching

by lrkr in

i kid you not.

page 16 of 1/1/08 wt.

"although evolution is usually presented in scientific language, it is really a religious doctrine.".

Shawn10538

For the sake of playing the devil's advocate, I think I might be able to reconcile that statement. I've been thinking about this lately in fact. WQhat makes a belief a religious belief. My theory is that when you believe in something parially but you leave room for doubt and the fact that you might be wrong, at that level of belief it wo7uldn't make sense to worship that thing believed in because of the doubt factor. In other words, if you worship something then chances are you believe in that thing 101%. You are sure, positive and you'd even lay down your life for that belief. This could potentially be true of evolutionists. If they are so convinced of its truth that you no longer have an ounce of doubt, then it might be said that you admire and treat with great esteem and have emotions about that thing such that you have this warm and fuzzy feeling for the evolution theory, it starts to sound dangerously like worship. In my opinion, evolutionists especially need to maintain a healthy amount of doubt lest they become dogmatic, which is an unscientific stance. So, that's about the best I got to offer on this subject.

Oh wait I never finished my thought. So, in other words, a belief becomes religious (and I understand that this would be coining a new definition of the word) when you cease to maintain a healthy amount of doubt about a belief.

86

Renegade Mormons - Abuse of Children- Broken Bones -Many Girls Pregnant

by flipper in

how long will religions claiming to worship god - tolerate the abuse of children , and try to hide it ?

catholics, jehovah's witnesses, mormons - my wife and i discussed it and i'm starting to feel that there is something about the stunted views of religions about sex in general that creates these monsters of sexual child abuse !

do we not just hear about the non-religious child abusers ?

Shawn10538

Get used to it. More to come later. I am against all cults, so Moronism is fair game as far as I'm concerned. And my how like JWs all of your ezxcuses are. Are you getting them straight from the Watchtower? You even indicate a "new light" doctrine of sorts. Just like JWs will say that all the strange doctrines of the past were minor doctrines and they don't represent the bulk of the Society's teachings. I've heard the same crap from witnesses a million times.