I think White Dove hit on an important point. We are not asking here whether some common carpenter named Jesus existed. There were no doubt many carpenters named Jesus from Nazareth at the time. We are asking if Zeus, Appollos, gnomes, fairies etc. existed, because that is the class of things the Jesus CHRIST would be listed with, magical imaginary gods. He has all the attributes of magical fairy gods: magic powers, raising the dead, levitating.
So, would this be a discussion if the only claim about Jesus was that he was the best carpenter in Palestine at the time, or even an artistic carpenter of the ilk of Michael Angelo or Da Vinci? No. No one really cares if a great artist was real or not because there are great artists who are alive today. It is not supernatural for an artist to exist. It is when we start saying that Jesus walked on water and changed water to wine that we begin to suspect, as with Zeus and Appollos, that Jesus never existed.
We don't rally care if Aeschylus or Shakespeare really existed. It's possible I suppose that they did not exist. But people aren't dying and killing for Shakespeare, they are for Jesus. So if Jesus is real and we are going to have to start killing and dying for him once we establish his existence, then we must make darn sure he really existed before we give away our lives for him. After all, he is asking for no less than our lives, is he not?
Shawn10538
JoinedPosts by Shawn10538
-
74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
-
-
Shawn10538
-
67
Jerry Bergman on JWs destroying library books
by Dogpatch inthe number of my books in academic libraries.
i have authored several scholarly books and monographs about the jehovahs witnesses.
my books and articles on the watchtower and related topics are found in hundreds of university, college and other libraries, and have also been translated into 12 languages.
-
-
Shawn10538
Where was this article published and when? Apparently it is by Bergman, but in what publication or form was it in before it became a post here? Just curious. If I want to refer to it to a JW I might get asked that question.
-
74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
-
-
Shawn10538
I think I have a way to really put this discussion to bed. Let's concede that there is this tiny amount of secular evidence to support the theory that Jesus of Nazereth actually existed. Let's just concede that the sources, Josephus and one or two others perhaps, are the most credible historians to have ever existed. Where does that leave us? Christ as fact? Hardly.
Well, I believe that the spirit of the original question on this thread really was asking for rock solid evidence. Rock solid evidence woud have to address both the quantity and quality of the evidence. If we are lacking in quantity, even as we have conceded that the one or two brief mentions of this alleged person was reported by the highest quality of historian, it still makes one wonder why all the thousnads of other historians at the time completely ignored this marvelous miracle worker, even said to be God himself. In other words, one or two of the most marvelous historians ever reporting, very briefly, on an alleged person that thousands of others didn't know about doesn't settle the matter of Jesus' existence. It still leaves room for doubt. (Snowbird, why are you bothering to read this? You are wasting your time here. You believe on faith, so all evidence of a non-biblical kind should not be of any interest to you. This thread is about evidence, not faith, besides I am using reason here, and you have admitted that reason just doesn't get you there. Curiosity will only weaken your faith.)
That is why I subscribe to the percentage of belief system. I don't disbelieve in Jesus of Nazareth 100%. I openly admit, as an atheist even, that sure, Jesus of Nazareth COULD have existed. I believe in Jesus as directly corresponded to by the amount of evidence CURRENTLY available. So, I end up believing in Jesus with about 1% of my person. I lack belief in Jesus 99%. This is because we have about 1% of the evidence needed to solidly establish his existence in historical terms.
So there, problem solved! Everyone should believe in Jesus equivalently to the amount of secular objective evidence. (This is assuming that one understands that the gospels, for example, are religious evidences and therefore apologistic in nature and not reliable evidence for all people. It is highly subjective and therefore should be doubted seriously by all rational people, as all apologistic writings should be, even if they are written by so called scientific persons. If you accept scripture as evidence then this wouldn't apply to you. But, even accepting scripture as evidence shouldn't necessarily put you at "100% believer in Jesus." At best you could only get to 99%. That last 1% you are going to have to fudge with the "faith excuse.")
The problem is that, I would be willing to bet my life that every single person who has posted on this thread in support of the theory of Jesus, doesn't just believe in the physical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. Most if not all here believe that not only did he exist but: he performed miracles, is God or God's son, died and came back, raised the dead, spoke a message straight from the creator of the universe, represents the "true way," born of a virgin...
So, in other words, our Jesus apologists in this thread aren't really being totally honest with us. They are not revealing the fact that their belief in Jesus is not a cold scientific or historical belief at all; it is a religious belief that is influenced not simply by secular facts but by deeply emotional love and worship of this person that we don't seem to have much solid evidence that he even existed. How did we get from simply nodding our heads at Jesus' existence, to bowing down with our faces to the ground begging forgiveness of our sins to this, not dead, but ALIVE invisible superman in the sky who will punish you for all eternity if you don't believe in him based on flimsy evidence? Now, that should be the real discussion.
Anybody who does not leave at least (and this is being astoundingly generous) 1% doubt about Jesus' existence, I am sorry, but I just can't view you as a rational person, and this is by your own admission. When did you admit that you are not a rational person? The moment you fudged that last 1% with the "faith excuse." You then admitted that logic and reason are not really necessary to believe something. You have a mechanism that ultimately is capable of destroying even the most solid evidence out there, faith. If your eyes tell you, Snowbird, that the Bible is wrong on some small point, actually it is your eyes that are in error because the Bible is truth. What eyes see and ears hear are thus rendered irrelevant. The Bible is truth; all else be damned.
I bring in the Bible here because that is where we get the idea of faith. I do not know of this concept from anywhere else, though it may have had some pagan origin I don't know. So, you have faith that the Bible is true because the Bible says to have faith that it is true. Let me say that again to make sure I got it right. You have faith that the Bible is true because the Bible says to have faith that it is true.
You believe in Jesus not because the evidence is so overwhelming, but because the Bible says that you should have faith that the Bible is true because the Bible says that you should have faith that the Bible is true and the Bible says that Jesus existed and performed miracles blah blah blah. Circular logic, true, but that doesn't bother the Jesus believer at all because it is not logic, reason or evidence that ultimately convinces a person to believe in Jesus, it is faith! why faith? Because the Bible says that you must have faith, and believe on faith. Why believe the Bible? Because the Bible says that you must believe the bible (it is god's word) and that you should ignore disconfirming evidence and just believe on faith. I could keep this up forever. It just goes around and around and around. Not a problem for Snowbird at all. She believes on faith. Why? Because the Bible says to believe in Jesus on faith.... why believe the Bible? The Bible says to. That really can be the only legitimate reason to believe in the Bible in fact. Because the Bible says so.
If one even mentions that the Bible is true because, say for example, archaeology has uncovered and veerified some individual facts about the Bible then it becomes an archaeological discussion at that point and not a religious or faith based discussion. Then we'll have to really get into the archaelogical facts, all Christians would have to actually become archaeologists so they could prove the Bible true. But then Snowbird will come along and remind us all that it just doesn't matter what archaeology uncovers or doesn't uncover. If it uncovers something that supports the Biblical, fine. But if archaeology uncovers something that contradicts the Bible, well, the faithful just ignore it because if it is true, then the Bible isn't infallible. This of course is what makes it a complete waste of time to refer to any other disciplines, scinces, facts, etc. Only supportive facts are going to be accepted, why bother trying to get archaeology to support the Bible? You believe on faith let's not forget, not on evidence. This makes evidence completely irrelevant to the truly faithful. Only a person with weak faith or doubts would need any kind of physical confirmation whatsoever.
Personally, I think if we are having a discussion on Jesus, people who believe in Jesus to the point of "religiosity" and who actually worship him should identify themselves as apologists at the start of the doscussion so the more scientifically minded can ignore their comments. Why is this fair? It is because we already know what the faithful believer is going to come up with. No surprise there! They are only going to bring up evidence that supports their faith. It is not just a matter historicity or scientific facts for them, it is a matter of the salvation for their eternal soul. So, can the word of someone who believes they are going to be tortured forever if they don't believe in the conclusion they have already reached possibly be trusted? Can we trust that person under the threat of torture to really just look at the evidence and objectively formulate beliefs based on available evidence and nothing else without regard to his strongly emotional beliefs and worship? Of course not. That is why forced confessions are not regarded as legitimate. Anything believed under the threat of torture is not really believed at all.
My conclusion is that even if we doubt only 1% that Jesus of Nazareth existed, that is already enough doubt to make actua;lly worshippin him utterly ridiculous. You can't or at least shouldn't worship something unless you are 100% sure of its existence. There just isn't enough evidence that Jesus existed to warrant 100% belief and subsequently, not enough evidence to warrant worship of that person. -
10
jw's slacking off on fs?
by carla ini hear you guys saying that often.
i find it frustrating because mine sure hasn't!
maybe it is all the jw's who have ubm's who do most of the door to door now?
-
-
Shawn10538
Finally someone who knows how to level the playing field. I love your way Carla!
-
74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
-
-
Shawn10538
Snowbird,
Why do you bother with trying to "prove" or show evidence of Jesus' physical existence? You have already stated very clearly on this forum that you believe because of faith, not evidence. It seems more likely to you that if the Bible said the earth is flat, and it did by the way, as well as saying that the stars were pinned to a canopy draped over the earth, it would be true, not because it is true, but because the Bible says it is true. With that kind of rule of thumb for sensing reality you might as well stop opening your eyes in the morning and start plugging your ears because they are liable to deceive you. Only the Bible makes truth according to you it seems. everything else be damned.
What need have you of Josephus then? Why do you cling to Josephus as if the existence of your lord depended on his testimony? You are obviously already familiar with him. Why? You have the Bible. It is God's infallible word. You need nothing else. You do not need reason, logic, vision or any other senses but what is required for you to "read" the Bible. Braille should be suficient. You don't want any senses that might deceive you into thinking the Bible is wrong do you? The Devil is very tricky after all. If your eye makes you sin it is better to poke it out right?
It seems that the whole of Jesus' existence is hinging on this one dude, Josephus. If the entire existence of Jesus hangs on the word of Josephus, then God must have been using Josephus in a much grander way than any Bible writer. He used Josephus to prove the existence of his son. Wow! Josephus is one important dude to Christianity. It all comes down to him apparently. -
74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
-
-
Shawn10538
Also, on the date thing, check out Zeitgeist. It explains that the year one thing is actually based on astrological ages, in this case the age of Pices, which is also the origin and reason for the Jesus fish sign.
-
89
Europe must stand up to Islam NOW
by B_Deserter injust read this today: .
http://news.aol.co.uk/prayer-refusal-pupils-disciplined/article/20080704162734190726835 .
an education authority is investigating claims that two school pupils were punished for refusing to kneel down and pray to allah during a religious education lesson.
-
-
Shawn10538
Christians don't strap on suicide belts and kill innocent men women and children... zeroday
Actually they do, they have and they will.
Also, there is to explain here how suicide bombing is any worse than any other kind of bombing. Bombs are bombs. Dropping them from 20000 feet in the air is better than strapping them to your body how? The only benefit is to the bomber. Both bombs kill innocents. The above statement from zeroday is profoundly ignorant, an ignorant that belies such incredible subjectivity that hopes of explaining its wrongness to zeroday are futile.
Why are we so shocked at suicide bombings, but so at ease with ICBMs? One reason, our side uses the ICBMs. Their side doesn't have the money for ICBMs, so they are forced through poverty to bomb whatever way they can for their cause. Suicide bombing is no more evil than any other kind of bombing. Christians I dare say are just as guilty of horrific crimes. History is full of examples for anyone paying attention.
I will admit though that Islaam has a more extreme way of applying their religion. It is more supportive of totalitarian style ruling and more cultic. I do agree it is a problem in modern society that needs to be kept in check. We must not let Islaam expand into western society less we all be subjected to its iron hand. In other words, getting rid of Islaam is a good start. we can get rid of Christianity later. -
17
Jesus the Firstborn - What the Bible REALLY Teaches!
by UnDisfellowshipped inwhat the bible really teaches: the firstborn of all creation.. jehovah's witnesses teach that because jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" at colossians 1:15, this has to mean that jesus was the first creation by god.. .
since jesus is called "firstborn" because he created all things and existed before all things, this shows that he is not called "firstborn" because he was the first thing created.. paul himself, at colossians 1:18, explains that he is referring to the position or rank of "firstborn," because paul says jesus is the one who has "preeminence" or "first place" in all things.
therefore, paul was not saying that jesus was the first creature created by god.
-
-
Shawn10538
Are there Unitarians who give a flip about the Bible or any doctrine for that matter? I have a bunch of friends from that church and they don't even believe in god let alone being up for a biblical debate.
-
63
How Can people talk to Children like that....
by Hope4Others ini was coming out of the grocery store with a few items, and a round the corner comes a woman with 2 young.
boys about 7 or 8. she seemed a little clutsey, she raises her voice, the whole damn parking lot could of heard.. they were walking a head of her, she says "if you trip me boy, your going to sit in the truck all day.
like a lot but geez its 29 degrees celsius and extremely humid.
-
-
Shawn10538
Actually, teaching latinos in the hood is a totally different experience from teaching blacks in the hood. Frankly, as a special ed. teacher that enters a variety of classrooms within my district area, south central districts 6 and 8 of lausd, when I walk into a class with mostly latinos I sigh in relief because I know I will have a chill day in comparison to a class with all blacks. I'm sorry but this is true.
Latinos have a bit more respect for elders in their culture even when they are raised in the hood, I just can't deny that it is a fact. As far as other cultures, well, there are no other cultures in south central to speak of, no asians and no whites - very rare, and when there are, they are the best students in terms of grades and behavior. That is not an official statistic of course, but us teachers when we are alone all understand this to be true, and we talk about "why" this is true all the time. In fact, that is the conversation, why is this true? Not, is this true.
When latino child tells me off, very rarely I might add, I usually notice that they hang around the black kids. They are not picking up those attitudes from their parents. I've seen latino kids who were fine in 6th grade get into middle school exposed to lots of black friends suddenly start telling teachers off and "talking black" with extra attitude. Even latino gang members have this code of respect that is very noticeable. They may shoot you out on the street if you are in their neighborhood, but they will speak to you in very respectful tones, especially if you bring up their mother or Jesus. They suddenly turn into angels. Sure they are cut throat gangsters but they have their code and they stick to it.
Plus, many black kids can't sit still. They just can't. Sometimes they just stand up in the middle of class and do a dance in front of their desks. I think this is a beautiful cultural expression of course, but it soon turns into a mad house if you let them do it. I have to send some out to run around the yard sometimes and tell them not to come back until they are good and tired. Sometimes i have them all stand up and get their wiggles out. They love it when I do that. I should mention too that later in the year when I've developed a repoire with them, things usually calm down. I have to work at it all year long, but eventually the volume and attitude can taper off a bit near the end as they get used to responding to my voice.
I should mention though that I wouldn't trade my kids for anything in the world. I get attached to them, every single one of them, black, latino or otherwise, I love them. I have never regretted teaching any child, no matter what struggles we went through getting to know one another. -
34
The SHOW must go on!!!
by leaving-jws ini remember when i was a kid in "the truth.
there was an elderly sister that had a heart attack during the meeting.
she made loud gasping sounds as she was holding on for dear life.
-
-
Shawn10538
The same thing has happened several times at meetings I've been at. A brother on stage started having a heart attack just a couple of years ago in Long Beach. Two brothers went up on stage and dragged him off lifting him off the groung jjust a bit (the wrong thing to do by the way if anyone knows CPR and first aid). Then another brother wen tup to finish the part. In the meantime they dragged him to the tiny back room and only elders and MSs were allowed to go in. I have been trainined in CPR so I knew they were totally botching it up. But I was DFd at the time, so when I went back and told them I could help I was greeted with stern silence then instructed to go back to my seat, because Jehovah's appointed men were handling it. Eventually they called a sister back who was a nurse. After 15 min. or so they finally decided to call an ambulance, but they didn't want the EMTs to come into the Hall and disturb the meeting. So, they hoisted the elderly fragile brother up again and dragged him outside to wait in the cold for the ambulance. They just stood outside with the brother dangling off the ground supported by two large brothers. They didn't even bring him a chair to sit on. When the EMTs got there they were asking, 'What are you doing with him? Did youy move him? What's going on here?" Sick.
On other occasions I've seen epileptic fits go completely ignored in the middle of songs, a fallen elderly woman on walker at the front of the hall get picked up and moved after she fell, later found to have broken her hip, to get her out of the way of the meeting. A girl I grew up with with Turret's was thrown out her own hall because she was "acting up." I just... don't know anymore. God they are just high and stupid on their religion. They lose their common sense and humanity.