Posts by CPiolo

premise: many who have read the bible over the centuries have accepted it as authoritatively from god, and have glossed over some glaring inconsistencies, contradictions, and shear nonsense.

some cultish groups have attempted to mimick the myths and twisted beliefs they have derived from the bible.

jehovah's witnesses are no exception to this.. this raises the questions: if the bible (as we know it) is from god, having his stamp of authorship and approval, then can we ever at some point raise serious questions about it?

CPiolo

Amazing:

Again you raise good and difficult questions. Again I must say I respect immensely someone who closely examines their beliefs the way you have been. Best of luck on your journey.

CPiolo

1

A Trail of Secrecy and Deception (more RC molest)

by CPiolo in

jw
friends

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000067948aug22.story

CPiolo

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000067948aug22.story

3

Dioceses settle sex suit

by CPiolo in

jw
friends

dioceses settle sex suit .

religion: o.c.

man who alleged molestation by o.c.

CPiolo

Dioceses settle sex suit

Religion: O.C. man who alleged molestation by O.C. priest gets $5.2 million and the pledge of a new code of conduct.

August 21, 2001

By GREG HARDESTY,
TIFFANY MONTGOMERY
and JEFF COLLINS
The Orange County Register

Catholic Church leaders in Orange and Los Angeles counties have settled a lawsuit accusing a once-powerful priest of molestation, agreeing to pay $5.2 million and vowing to crack down on clergymen who prey on youngsters.

A code of conduct, to be enforced by a judge, results from accusations that Monsignor Michael Harris, 56, molested a 17-year-old boy in 1991.

Harris denies wrongdoing and never has been charged with a crime. However, he has agreed to leave the priesthood in the wake of the legal challenge.

"I'm very happy with what we got accomplished," said Ryan DiMaria, now 28, who brought the suit. "I think it will protect a lot of victims in the future.''

Harris, through his attorney, called DiMaria's accusations groundless, but declined to be interviewed.

A former pillar of Orange County's Catholic community, Harris raised most of the money to open Santa Margarita Catholic High School in 1987 and was principal through 1994.

The settlement in DiMaria's suit against the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and the Diocese of Orange, recently reached in Orange County Superior Court but still being finalized, calls for a toll-free 800 number and Web site for reporting molestation, educational pamphlets to be distributed to Catholic churches and schools, and for priests to be required to sign agreements not to molest, among other things.

DiMaria's attorney, Katherine Freberg, said the agreement is unprecedented, but church officials in both counties say they already have many of the policies in place.

"What it (the settlement) really does is take the enforcement and trust out of the church's own institutions, which have failed miserably," said Jeffrey Anderson, a St. Paul, Minn., attorney who has handled molestation cases against the Catholic Church around the country.

Tod D. Brown, bishop of the Diocese of Orange, said he is anguished at the allegations against Harris.

He said the church acted properly in suspending Harris shortly after it received complaints about him.

"Although Michael Harris continues to deny any wrongdoing, the Diocese of Orange has grave doubts about his innocence in these matters,'' Brown said.

He apologized to DiMaria and others who have said Harris molested them as boys.

"I personally express my profound sorrow for the suffering that (the victims) have described,'' Brown said.

Insurance paid for $2 million of the $5.2 million settlement, and each diocese kicked in an additional $1.6 million, Brown said.

The Catholic Church has been roundly criticized for failing to protecting its flock. In some dioceses, officials told pedophiles to "pray their way'' out of their illness.

Some church officials said they could understand why a formal code of conduct would be needed.

"We're all pretty conscious not to engage in any activity with minors without an adult present,'' said the Rev. Christian Mondor, parochial vicar at St. Simon and Jude Church in Huntington Beach.

"I find it (the formal policies) very demeaning,'' he added, "but I understand why, with all the scandals that have occurred, priests have to do that."

The accusations against Harris date back to the 1970s, when he became a priest.

DiMaria, a former Santa Margarita High student, alleged in his lawsuit that the dioceses turned their backs on the predatory behavior of Harris, who allegedly targeted young males in need of spiritual counseling.

DiMaria also sued Harris, and that case also was recently settled. Harris agreed to give up his collar. He said in a written statement issued by his attorney that he had done nothing wrong but couldn't afford to defend himself.

"For over 25 years, Monsignor Harris has devoted his life to working with high school students,'' the statement from Harris' lawyer, Mike Trotter, said.

Trotter called Harris a "scapegoat.''

Harris lives in Oceanside and has been on inactive leave from the church since 1994. He plans to focus on his business of managing mobile-home parks for low-income families, according to Trotter.

Orange County Judge James Gray, who oversaw the settlement, said it was important to go beyond a monetary award.

"It seems to me there was a real opportunity to do something positive, and we tried to focus on that,'' Gray said. "I'm optimistic about this. We had highly placed officials in the church (involved), and they took it very seriously.''

Gray said he would enforce the conduct code if either side comes to him alleging noncompliance - just as he does in other types of settlements.

In addition to DiMaria, David A. Price, Vincent Colice and Mark Curran accused Harris of molesting them when he was principal of Mater Dei High School in Santa Ana in the 1970s and '80s.

Price filed a civil lawsuit against Harris and the two dioceses in 1994, but he dropped it after a judge dismissed the dioceses from the case.

Researchers have said that about 2 percent of Catholic clergy are pedophiles and 4 percent have an attraction to adolescent boys. Those percentages were described as about equal to those found in the general public.

Anderson said he has seen improvement in the church's handling of molestation charges, but he believes there still is a long way to go.

"The whole dimension of denial runs so deep," Anderson said. "It takes dramatic external pressure to purge an institution of that. And you don't do it in one case - or in one year. I haven't even seen it done in one decade."

Even after the settlement announcement, some Harris supporters continued to back him.

"Personally, I don't believe it (molestation) happened,'' said Scott Cody, who graduated from Santa Margarita High in 1995.

Cody described Harris as a mentor and close friend who would sponsor "movie nights'' at his home to keep students out of trouble - not lure them into it.

"I feel bad,'' said Cody, 28, of Mission Viejo. "Part of me - about 1 percent - says that if this happened, I feel sorry for (DiMaria). The other 99 percent says I feel sorry that Monsignor Harris has to go through all this, because he's done so many wonderful things for so many people.''

Officials at Santa Margarita High School declined to comment.

Harris' case is one of several in Orange County involving religious figures accused of molestation. While a parish priest at St. Bonaventure Catholic Church, Andrew Christian Andersen had sex with boys and was given probation and sent to a treatment center. After molesting another, he was sent to prison.

John Lenihan molested a girl at St. Norbert Catholic Church in Orange. The Orange Diocese settled out of court with the victim's family. Lenihan now is parish priest at St. Edward Church in Dana Point.

News researcher Eugene Balk contributed to this report.

The LA Times story can be found here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-catholic-sex-abuse0821aug21.story

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-000067752aug21.story

1

Molest chapter unsettles church

by CPiolo in

molest chapter unsettles church .

religion: o.c.

catholics express disgrace and doubt over allegations against cleric.

CPiolo

Molest chapter unsettles church

Religion: O.C. Catholics express disgrace and doubt over allegations against cleric.

August 22, 2001

By JEFF COLLINS,
TIFFANY MONTGOMERY
and GREG HARDESTY
The Orange County Register

A priest asked worshippers at a Tuesday evening Mass not to lose faith in God.

The distraught mother of a Lake Forest youth minister called her daughter for reassurance.

And Catholics throughout Orange County experienced a jolt as they got news Tuesday that their church paid $5.2 million to settle a lawsuit accusing a prominent clergyman, Monsignor Michael Harris, of molesting a former student.

"I feel sorry that the church had to pay so much money," said Nancy Phan, 41, of Santa Ana, a postal employee who was attending the Mass at St. John the Baptist Church in Costa Mesa.

"My heart sinks (because of) this," said Burr McKeehan of Dana Point, a Harris supporter whose three children had Harris as a principal at Catholic high schools.

"It's demoralizing," said the Rev. John Paul Hopping of St. John the Baptist. "It makes us all look bad."

Yet some Orange County Catholics interviewed Tuesday said they took the news in stride, saying they still don't know whether to believe the accusations against Harris.

Others defended the church, saying its clergy aren't the only ones accused of sexual misconduct, and such incidents are rare.

They supported the decision by the Diocese of Orange and Archdiocese of Los Angeles to adopt a code of conduct designed to curb sexual improprieties by priests and employees.

"It helps both sides," Sam Collins, 41, a track coach at Mater Dei High School, said of a new policy forbidding priests and employees from being alone with minors.

"Now, as a coach I can tell someone, 'No, I can't take you home after a game.' I can say, 'These are the rules.'"

Harris, 56, the former principal of Mater Dei and Santa Margarita Catholic high schools, resigned his academic position in 1994 and was suspended from priestly duties amid molestation accusations from several students.

Harris has never been charged criminally and continued this week through his attorney to deny the accusations, though he agreed to resign from the priesthood.

But this month, the Diocese of Orange and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles agreed to pay former student Ryan DiMaria a settlement believed to be one of the largest ever paid by a U.S. Catholic Church - and the largest it ever paid before trial.

The dioceses also agreed to impose a zero-tolerance list of guidelines on all Los Angeles and Orange county priests, though church officials say most already are followed informally.

DiMaria, 28, of Laguna Hills, sued Harris and the two dioceses in 1997, saying the priest molested him in 1991 when he was a Santa Margarita High School junior.

Standing before television news cameras Tuesday, DiMaria said he would mail to bishops nationwide the new code of conduct mandated by the settlement. He said he hopes other churches voluntarily adopt what his attorneys, Kathy Freberg and John Manly, dubbed "Ryan's Law."

"I know firsthand the feelings of pain and shame that others must feel from molestation,'' said DiMaria, surrounded by relatives, supporters and two other alleged victims of Harris - Mark Curran and Larry Raheb.

In all, four men and DiMaria had come forward with similar allegations dating back to the 1970s.

Harris had charisma and exuded authority. He was famous for his bear hugs. His 6-foot-2, 200-pound frame was a familiar sight at mixers.

Despite Harris' professed innocence, court documents reveal a more nuanced picture of the priest.

A medical report in court records reveal a priest with a calm, confident façade who on the inside was beset by anxiety, uncertainty and torment.

Harris "did not deny nor affirm the charges'' made by DiMaria when Harris spoke with officials at Saint Luke Institute in Maryland, where he was sent for treatment in 1994, the report said.

But Saint Luke officials concluded "there is substance to the allegations,'' court records show.

Harris told doctors his first sexual relationship was a yearlong tryst with another boy when both were 13 or 14, according to the report. He told doctors that his sexual fantasies continued to be homosexually oriented, the report said.

Harris now serves as president of Caritas Corporation, a nonprofit that owns and operates mobile-home parks.

His board of directors includes William Lyon, chairman and chief executive officer of William Lyon Homes, one of the nation's largest homebuilders; Roger Kirwan, chairman of the Orange County Performing Arts Center; and John Trotter, a retired justice of the 4th District Court of Appeals.

McKeehan, a retired podiatrist, also sits on the Caritas board.

"Until he tells me this is true, I don't believe (the allegations)," McKeehan said.

Some Catholics interviewed said that, even if the accusations are true, they prove only that priests are human.

Father Hopping quoted the Rev. Billy Graham during Mass at St. John the Baptist.

"Don't you ever, ever put your faith in a priest," he said. "Put your faith in Jesus Christ."

"In any population, you're going to see this kind of thing happen," added Joanne Lambert, youth minister at Santiago de Compostela Church in Lake Forest.

"There's nothing quite like a priest in a collar to (represent) the holy and chaste," said Lambert, who was consoling her mother Tuesday. "(But) priests are human beings. They sin just like all other persons."

Register news researcher Eugene Balk contributed to this report.

The LA Times story is here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000067945aug22.story

26

I need help! I'm losing my wife!

by indireneed in

jw
friends

my wife is becoming a witness and i've found very little that i can do to stop her!

i've tried to show her that the wt does not quote correctly, i've talked to her about past beliefs and i've tried to reason with her about the bible.

but she won't listen!.

CPiolo

MegaDude:

Thanks for clearing up what you meant. I too know of almost no JW/non-JW marriages that are happy, but my sample is small and mostly made of people I've met on discussion boards such as this, made up of people who for one reason or another have an issue with the WT. Those with happy marriages probably don't visit sites like this. An infrequent DFed poster here, Cygnus, is happily married to his JW wife.

What you describe as an untimatum is more doesn't seem so much an ultimatum to me, or an ultimatum of a different kind. I guess that why it's important to define the words we use. What you're talking about is if you can't live with a JW, be honest about it with that person. larc might be able to help out here, but I think in the social sciences that there is another term for this. I read something about this while browsing through a book not long ago, but can't remember how they described this. It's just a statement of what you need (the conditions) to be married. Of course, much depends on how and when you make such a statement.

To stay or not stay in a marriage where there are such large differences in one's personal perspective about life and how it should be led is a difficult and very personal decision. All marriages, no matter how strong, have their ups and downs. If one is absolutely miserable, leaving could be the best thing for all involved -- husband, wife, and any children, who almost always perceive difficulties between their parents, even if they are unable to articulate them. Professional counseling is, in my opinion, a wise course to follow before making such a decision.

My own situation is a difficult one for me. But much of that has to do with my own personality and values. I often fail at those things I suggested to indireneed. It's a constant battle complicated by other factors in my personal circumstances.

You were certainly right to suggest taking your advice with a grain of salt. I've often suggested that. To glean what one can from the various posters, seek professional help, and then do what your conscience tells you to do. With a few exceptions, the vast majority here are not mental health professionals, and even if we were, this isn't the forum to treat or counsel someone professionally. What we share commonly is our various involvement or contact with the WTB&TS. Hopefully, whatever experience or insight we have because of this may help others in similar circumstances.

CPiolo

26

I need help! I'm losing my wife!

by indireneed in

jw
friends

my wife is becoming a witness and i've found very little that i can do to stop her!

i've tried to show her that the wt does not quote correctly, i've talked to her about past beliefs and i've tried to reason with her about the bible.

but she won't listen!.

CPiolo

Let me add that I believe ultimatums are bad because they are aggressive, hostile, confrontational and contentious. Certainly, this isn't the best atmosphere to approach someone or negotiate (a little love, kindness and compassion can work wonders). It puts a person's back against the wall, often producing the fight or flight response. Either way someone's bound to lose.

CPiolo

26

I need help! I'm losing my wife!

by indireneed in

jw
friends

my wife is becoming a witness and i've found very little that i can do to stop her!

i've tried to show her that the wt does not quote correctly, i've talked to her about past beliefs and i've tried to reason with her about the bible.

but she won't listen!.

CPiolo

larc:

I agree that giving ultimatums is a bad idea and should only be used as a last resort. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I like your suggestions regarding negociation and freetime activities. I have been planning on researching the art of negotiation. You've given me the prod I needed. It's one of my weak spots.

Of topic, I've enjoyed your post regarding freewill vs. determinism.

Thanks,

CPiolo

26

I need help! I'm losing my wife!

by indireneed in

jw
friends

my wife is becoming a witness and i've found very little that i can do to stop her!

i've tried to show her that the wt does not quote correctly, i've talked to her about past beliefs and i've tried to reason with her about the bible.

but she won't listen!.

CPiolo

indireneed:

I know what you're going through, and it isn't at all easy. My wife returned to JWs after we were married. She had been out for many years, but when faced with some emotionally stressful events in her life, she returned. Our marriage has suffered since. The large amount of time necessary to attend meetings, assemblies, conventions, and proselytize takes her away from our relationship. All relationships require work and time to do the work. It's no wonder the relationships of JWs and their un-believing "worldly" mates suffer. Oftentimes as well the unbeliever feels alienated, alone, angry, frustrated, helpless, depressed, rejected, an object of religious bigotry and more. I know; I've felt all of these things.

There are a few things you should do. Arm yourself with knowledge -- knowledge of JWs, of cults or high-control groups who use mind control to manipulate and indoctrinate people, and how to effectively approach a person being influenced in such a way. I would suggest you start with Steven Hassan's book Releasing the Bondshttp://www.freedomofmind.com/. There are also some excellent resources on the site. Secondly, take care of yourself. If you fall prey to negative emotions and depression, you will not be able to make any headway with your wife and improve your relationship.

Kathy said:

He'd listen, and then he'd sometimes try the humiliation trick...

I would strongly disagree with this approach. Oftentimes those most succeptible to being indoctrinated already suffer from low self-esteem. Their self-esteem needs boosting. The last thing they need is to be humiliated and brought down even further. This could easily backfire and your wife could withdraw even further into the group. Francois' suggested book The True Believer by Eric Hoffer goes into the emotional and psychological make-up of a "true believer" in great detail.

MegaDude said to tell your wife how much you love her, but then followed up by suggesting you give her an ultimatum. The first part of this is sound advice. You need to demonstrate your love for your wife as much as possible. If your angry, frustrated, and/or depressed, this may be difficult. But it is necessary. As many have already pointed out, your wife is looking for an emotional boost. If you can provide this (compliment her on her appearance, her cooking, etc,, tell her you love her, and so forth), the JWs won't have such a stronghold on her. The ultimatum about leaving may backfire, firstly, if you're not serious about it, and secondly, it will hinder any inroads you may make towards extracting your wife from the group and play right into their hands.

You also need to help you wife to think for herself, and expose her to information in a non-threatening way. Hassan's bood deals with this. There is also an excellent article on the freeminds site about how a former JW elder extracted his family http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp.htm. He posts here often.

More than anything, you're going to need patience. This is a long process. You've got to be in it for the long run.

I wish you the best of luck,

CPiolo

14

How do you spell God?

by GinnyTosken in

jw
friends

this summer i wanted to give my son a religious education.

by "religious education" i mean that i wanted to educate him about various religions without indoctrinating him to believe any specific way.

i want him to be knowledgable enough to be culturally literate and able to make an informed decision about his spiritual needs.. we have been reading together in genesis, but i also browsed at the library to find a book that might give us more detail about specific religious beliefs.

CPiolo

Ginny:

A very interesting link. Thanks!

I think a person can also feed this spiritual hunger by simply looking up at the stars, meditating, listening to good music, dancing, hugging, laughing, reading, etc.

God (whatever your definition) or spiritual food is more in the experience and enjoyment of life than in any religious text or building.

Thanks,

CPiolo