Ephez 2:8-9, Rom 11:6, Rom 4:1-6... See grace and works are exluding things. If by grace then not by works. And if by works, then it is not grace and gift, but wage. Letter of James uses same illustration of Abraham. Jamse speaks about faith in front of men. Men can not see hearts, that's why men judges by works. And faith produces works. But not only faith produces works. Greed, lust, arrogance... all these things can produce visible works and men can be decieved. But God sees the heart and he does not need works! Christians do works because they are saved not to be saved! Like fig tree produces figs not to become fig tree but because it is fig tree. Saved you are by grace through faith not by works. Works are result of your salvation! JW does not believe that God can be better then men, and so much love, that gives everlasting life for free just because of his love. Men tries to work out their salvation, but Jesus allready did it for them! People just need to recieve this gift by faith!
Shazard
JoinedPosts by Shazard
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Saved by grace or by works?
by rootofallevil inaccording to the wts if we do not produce acts of good work (feild service, attending 5 meetings weekly, circuit and district assemblies etc), we are not worthy of salvation.
according to the bible, we attain salvation through god's undeserved grace ( or kindness in jw lingo).
what i am looking for is scriptural proof that will shoot down the first and support the latter.
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ANNIHILATIONISM VS ETERNAL TORMENT ??
by Raphael in.
a question aimed at those of you who have become christians , after your jw experiences.... how many still believe that the soul of those not saved will cease to exist at death.... personaly i believe we are multi dimensional beings - we are spirit/soul and body.... i would suggest that god can destroy body/soul and spirit and that the references to eternal torment are figurative and not literal.... a very well known christian writer " john stott", who is an evangelical christian shares these views.... .
i'm intersted in how others who still believe feel about this ?
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Shazard
Well Jesus shared different view :) Coz you don't believe something it does not stops existing. Jesus talks about real spiritual place where wicked damned people and deamons are placed. Ethernal life is ethernal life with God. Ethernal death is ethernal life without God. It is modernism invention that "death" = "destruction and nothing", no any nation nor christians teached that death = end of everything. Jesus made to undestand very clearly that there is a place where bad people (bad in God's eyes) goes. And also there is ethernal Gehanna, which is ethernal place where people put them by their own will. It is existence without God.
When God creates something he creates it to exist, not to be destroyed. But if creation chooses life without God and refuses God's grace, forigiviness, love and gifts, then there will come time, when God will say "enough", and those who rejected God will exist without God - imagine it - remove everything (every single thing) which is GOOD in your life, and see what lefts and that is even not close to hell. -
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When he said let us make Man in Our image?
by mydiscounts inwho was he really talking to, i know jws believe it was jesus but it has puzzled me my whole life because i believed jesus had to have had a mother.
if he is saying let us make mankind in our image he then created two different beings a man and a woman, where does the image of the woman come from, how, why and from whose image are woman from, her body shape, voice sounding softer, and so on?.
sure i understand the whole rib thing but it goes to reason that there had to be some other being besides jesus he was speaking to, other wise mans companion would have naturally been another man, because the image of jesus is a man and the image of god is also manly.
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Shazard
Preincarnate Jesus as God is triune, so what so bad about God to talk to himself? Why people imagine that God is like man? And when he acts as he is not, people scream - it can't be coz, it can't be ever!
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HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?
by Terry inreligion tells us that man has a damaged consciousness polluted by sin.
religion tells us that man cannot think or reason on his own power.
religion teaches us that .
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Shazard
So... as allways, problem of deduction is what premises you choose!
If they will be wrong, conclusion will be wrong.
Several your premises are wrong!
BTW men never rights any book. Books are wrtitten by ink and/or keyboard! Even holy books!
Interpretation premise of yours is wrong.
I even without deep reading of your post found 2 WRONG premises. But deduction needs only ONE wrong premise and it guarantees that you will get wrong conclusion. -
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New 607 Website
by TheListener ina pro jw 607 website.
check it out.
if you're loved ones start searching the net for proof of 607 they may regurgitate some of the info.
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Shazard
One more (I know JW does not believe in bible what it says when it says against their believes) anti 607 proof only from bible alone.
Read Jer 29:
1 This is the text of the letter that the prophet Jeremiah sent from Jerusalem to the surviving elders among the exiles and to the priests, the prophets and all the other people Nebuchadnezzar had carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon.
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10 This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place.
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Now check... verse 10 is in the SAME letter Jeremia is writing in Verse 1 FROM JERUSALEM to all the people carried into EXILE.
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Read verse 10... LORD is comforting (well kind a) Exile poeple that 70 years will pass when they can return. So here are facts.
Jeremia is writing from Jerusalem (so it is still in places) to people in exile (allready) and tells them about 70 years. So I guess that these 70 years are atleast from begining of THE people exile. So people getting this letter was comforted that they will be in exile no more than 70 years, but Jeruaslem STILL standing.
The 2 verses for HONEST men will prove that begining of exile and 70 years IS NOT the same as destruction of Jerusalem. The 2 verses shows that Jerusalem is STANDING when 70 years and exile has began.
But I know for JW it is not argument! -
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New 607 Website
by TheListener ina pro jw 607 website.
check it out.
if you're loved ones start searching the net for proof of 607 they may regurgitate some of the info.
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Shazard
Ouh common... Their Daniel age calculation portion runs into lies even without deep check.
They argue, that Daniel was trained for 3 years, but on 2nd year of Nebukanezzar he interpreted his dream. So they conclude that it was 2nd year over Jews... 2nd year of destruction of Jerusalem. But they miss whole point. That Nebukanezzar invaded Jews when he was not officially king of Babilon, only on next year he became and it is very well with Bible.
Point is that they miss all stuff about king Jojakim (dunno how it is in english bible). Simple search proves that Daniel was taken to Babel 19-20 years before Jerusalem Destruction, on the first year of Nebukanezzar. This is math in range of 100, and JW are not able to do that. This site is CRAP, I even don't need any secular proof to find errors in their reasoning. -
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New 607 Website
by TheListener ina pro jw 607 website.
check it out.
if you're loved ones start searching the net for proof of 607 they may regurgitate some of the info.
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Shazard
BTW, fridnds, just several days ago I got one idea in my head and run to check it and it prooved to be right. Ofcourse extensive check should be done, but here what I found:
Book of Daniel NEVER mentions Israel or Judea as COUNTRY or LAND! Instead Daniel refers to Judea as to it's capital - Jerusalem. Daniel refers to "jewish people" or "your people - when somebody else talks", but no Isreael. This prooves my suspisious that similar as Isaiah, Daniel refers to Jerusalem as to whole country. Jerusalem identifies whole sacred land! It is in sync with Jeremia who told exactly that LAND will be desolated for 70 years (and whole neigboring lands too).
So here it is... specific language of Daniel is taken too directly when context shows it should not be done! -
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Mind Control Alert - Watchtower Article - simplifying your life -
by jgnat inwt january 1, 2006,"how firm is your trust in god?
an anonymous young man with a family is described as quitting a job because it interfered with meeting attendance.
can you see yourself taking a similar step if you were in circumstances like his?
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Shazard
Yeaaaa... I will never bee JW as my thinking patter would drive nuts the "teacher" if he would ask me so stupid questions.
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Do you support gay marriage?
by chappy inis your belief moral, social or practical?
would you feel the same way if there were absolutely no religious influence on the matter pro or con?.
regardless of your belief, does every adult have a fundimental right to marry anyone of his or her choosing, regardless of gender?.
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Shazard
No
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Isaiah 65
by KW13 inisaiah 65 v 20 something does say "or an old man who does not live out his years" so surely that means for the witnesses using that scripture, there isn't everlasting life?
i am not an expert so please be kind to me
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Shazard
Do not mix FOREVER (till end of Time, which was fullfilled by Jesus) with lifespan of people