Hi, I have a question that I can't seem to find a clear answer to. I remember pretty well what the policies were when I was in the org, but others of you would probably have a better answer.
Here's a reference:
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***w77 6/1 pp. 347-348 Mourning and Funerals—For Whom? ***
FUNERALS OF DISFELLOWSHIPED PERSONS?
However, suppose the deceased is a disfellowshiped person, someone who has been expelled from the Christian congregation for one reason or another. In “Questions from Readers” (The Watchtower, 1961, p. 544) the position was taken that a funeral for a disfellowshiped person was improper. The comment was made: “We never want to give the impression to outsiders that a disfellowshiped person was acceptable in the congregation when in truth and in fact he was not acceptable but had been disfellowshiped from it.” Are there no exceptions, in arranging a funeral for a disfellowshiped person?
Before answering that question it would be well briefly to review the matter of disfellowshiping. That it has a Scriptural basis can be seen from First Corinthians chapter 5, in which the apostle Paul commands the disfellowshiping of an immoral man. However, it was not until 1952 that Jehovah’s people of modern times acted on the growing urgency along this line. With strong zeal for righteousness and a hatred for what is wicked, they set guidelines for those taking the lead so as to keep congregations spiritually, doctrinally and morally clean.
Through the years Jehovah’s people have come to see the matter of disfellowshiping ever more clearly. Not only were details spelled out, but more and more it was seen that wisdom and love, as well as justice, have come into play. They saw the need of showing mercy to truly repentant erring ones, and of considering extenuating circumstances and any evidence of sincere sorrow. In quite recent years it was also pointed out that there is a difference between the way Christians should conduct themselves toward a notorious sinner or an aggressive apostate and toward one who is viewed as “a man of the nations”—to whom the common courtesy of a greeting may be extended.—Matt. 18:17; 2 John 9, 10.
It would seem that this distinction could even be observed in connection with the funeral of a disfellowshiped person. A Christian congregation would not want its good name besmirched by having it associated with any to whom 2 John 9, 10 applied, even in their death. But suppose a disfellowshiped person had been giving some evidence of genuine repentance and had been coming to the meetings and manifesting a desire to be reinstated in the congregation. Then, if the elders felt that it would not disturb the peace and harmony of the congregation nor bring reproach upon God’s people, there would be no objection to an elder’s giving a talk. How are they to know whether Jehovah has already forgiven him or not, since there is some evidence of repentance? Properly, the elders may have been waiting, wanting to make sure that his seeming repentance was sincere. Obviously, each case being different, it would need to be judged on its own merits. Of course, if a funeral talk is given, care would need to be taken not to dwell on personal matters nor to make any positive statements about whether he will be resurrected. But a fine Scriptural presentation and witness could certainly be given.
Moreover, we should not overlook two of the cardinal reasons for disfellowshiping a wrongdoer. One is to jolt him to his senses if possible. The other is to protect the congregation from his bad influence. Neither of these would apply now, since the disfellowshiped person is deceased. Even where a disfellowshiped person has continued as a mere “man of the nations,” so to speak, a Scriptural funeral talk can serve more than one good purpose, even as previously noted: It can provide comfort for the bereaved and a witness to outsiders. The very fact that a fine witness is given can be a comfort and consolation to the bereaved ones regardless of the circumstances.
We alone of all earth’s creatures were made in God’s image. Because of this we have the capacity to appreciate what death is all about. That is why we also have the capacity to mourn another’s loss of life and the desire to comfort bereaved ones. Is not our heavenly Father truly “the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort”? Surely! So in the matter of mourning and funerals we let his principles of wisdom, justice and love dictate our feelings and actions, even as they should in all other affairs of life.—2 Cor. 1:3, 4; 1 Cor. 16:14.
*** w81 9/15 p. 31 If a Relative Is Disfellowshiped . . . ***
25 The fact is that when a Christian gives himself over to sin and has to be disfellowshiped, he forfeits much: his approved standing with God; membership in the happy congregation of Christians; sweet fellowship with the brothers, including much of the association he had with Christian relatives. (1 Pet. 2:17) The pain he has caused may even survive him.
26 Should he die while disfellowshiped, arrangements for his funeral may be a problem. His Christian relatives may like to have had a talk at the Kingdom Hall, if that is the local custom. But that would not be fitting for a person expelled from the congregation. If he had been giving evidence of repentance and wanting God’s forgiveness, such as by ceasing to practice sin and by attending Christian meetings, some brother’s conscience might allow him to give a Bible talk at the funeral home or grave site. Such Biblical comments about the condition of the dead provide a witness to unbelievers or comfort to the relatives. However, if the disfellowshiped person had still been advocating false teachings or ungodly conduct, even such a talk would not be appropriate.—2 John 9-11. ********************************************************************************************************
So the question is, what are the policies now? Are you aware of recent examples where this was contradicted?
Sentient
JoinedPosts by Sentient
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Question- Funeral Memorial Service
by Sentient ini have a question that i can't seem to find a clear answer to.
i remember pretty well what the policies were when i was in the org, but others of you would probably have a better answer.
here's a reference: .
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Sentient
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Status Report- Sentient
by Sentient ini was just stopping by to give an update on how i've been doing, for those of you who did read snippets of my mind and my experience here.
i'm sorry to report that my life has taken a turn for the worse these past months.
some things i've learned or understood about life since i was a poster here have been difficult to adjust to.
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Sentient
Hi all,
I was just stopping by to give an update on how I've been doing, for those of you who did read snippets of my mind and my experience here.
I'm sorry to report that my life has taken a turn for the worse these past months. Some things I've learned or understood about life since I was a poster here have been difficult to adjust to. For those of you who long for intellectual understanding, I wish you could see what I see. The understanding of life is like a blinding light in its brilliant complexity, but too much of that beam and you get scorched.
Reminds me of:
"Come away oh human child
To the waters and the wild
With a faery hand in hand
For the world's more full of weeping
Than you can understand"
Though of course I don't really believe in a God now, it's reminiscent of the biblical imaginings of the energy from the face of God being too much to bear for us mere mortals. Perhaps I'll write a paper sometime about these things. For those of you who long for happiness, don't read the sort of things that people like me might write, or if you do don't believe it. Spend more of your time trying to be close to other people, and don't try too hard to figure out how everything works or why things are the way they are or why people are the way they are. Just believe in something positive and be as simple as you can. Wish I could follow my own advice, but I'm at a loss of how to for now.
Too curious for my own good I suppose. I guess you could say the old software isn't very compatible with the new and my body is rejecting it. I've experienced relentless anxiety leading to panic attacks and other serious complications making it difficult to survive, literally. I do have some plans now in attempting to reclaim my life.
So I'm just hanging on now you guys, just barely.
Wish me luck.
Best wishes to you all.
~Sent -
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Oprah For President!!!
by prophecor inkick hillary & condi to da' curb.
we need oprah in office.
you gotta' a better idea?
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Sentient
JH,That is correct. Anybody who thinks that anyone who genuinely gives a shit about you would ever be allowed to be elected as president of the U.S. of A. has been blinded by the illusion that they have control of things or that they are in a democracy. If you want to find the puppetmasters, look deeper than the legislature. Use your understanding of organizational control to understand every secretive organization, including nations. The greatest indicators of power today are:
1. Information Awareness and Control
2. Money
3. Might (a VERY long arm)
Each of these feeds the other, but increasingly the first is by far the most important. No matter how much money or power you've got, if you know virtually nothing about what I do or how I do it and I know everything about you and what you do, and I have a legally protected right plus the ability to do whatever the hell I want and keep my secret activities sealed by court order in the interests of "National Security", guess who owns who? Surprise! It's the people "keeping you safe".
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HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?
by Terry inreligion tells us that man has a damaged consciousness polluted by sin.
religion tells us that man cannot think or reason on his own power.
religion teaches us that .
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Sentient
tetrapod,
Do what you want to do with the years of your life you have left, there's nothing you have to do or not do. I don't need someone else to give me some point or meaning, yet it's still my right to make my own point or meaning out of the life I've got. Just because you've found out you're not immortal doesn't mean you have to act like you've got a hot coal up the rear and treat everyone else like a jackass. You'll only want other people to feel like their life will always be pointless if you feel that way...the greatest meaning is the meaning that comes from you. If you feel good, you'll try to help others feel good and improve their lives...I know that's one of the things that still makes me feel fulfilled in life. I still see my life as a gift, however I got here. And I realize that many people did many things to make the world I'm in a whole lot better in many ways than the way the world was before I got here. So if I have a choice, I'm going to do what I can to make it a little better for those who will live on after me. -
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A long Rant.....And a new beginning
by mandivided inhey everyone,.
my name is joe.
i've been a lurker for a while and just registered today.
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Sentient
mandivided,
Welcome, you remind me of me, I too was in that bubble for the first 21 years of my life. You are stronger than you yet know, never give up because tomorrow might not be better, or next week might not be, but eventually it can be. Be sure to go easy on yourself, give yourself however much time you need. You have a lot of life ahead of you. Breathe. -
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HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?
by Terry inreligion tells us that man has a damaged consciousness polluted by sin.
religion tells us that man cannot think or reason on his own power.
religion teaches us that .
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Sentient
And I would like to add an explanation of why so many people believe in holy books as much as they do. It is useful to you in your life to bypass your critical thinking at times, because you simply wouldn't have the time to think critically about everything. For example, if an attorney tells me something about a legal issue that contradicts what someone else told me, I will generally accept what the attorney said without giving it too much more thought. If it was something extremely important I might get a second opinion. So in my life I recognize people as having authority or expertise on certain subjects, and this allows me to focus my thought and efforts on what I want to do with my time.
By whatever processs of indoctrination or persuasion, people are trained to accept that something someone else wrote or said has come directly from a divine source. When they buy into that, they accept those words about how they should behave or even the very purpose of their existence as gospel. Add to that the fact that the Divine Words can be interpreted in different ways, and it's a mess! -
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HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?
by Terry inreligion tells us that man has a damaged consciousness polluted by sin.
religion tells us that man cannot think or reason on his own power.
religion teaches us that .
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Sentient
Exactly Terry!
*hands Terry the iceberg of the month prize* -
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HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?
by Terry inreligion tells us that man has a damaged consciousness polluted by sin.
religion tells us that man cannot think or reason on his own power.
religion teaches us that .
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Sentient
Satanus- Terry has already figured this out, but I think he is just trying to demonstrate it to those who he probably knows aren't going to listen, or maybe for some outside validation of his conclusions, which I agree with here.
It is impossible to "dump all beliefs", you would then have no mind or would be just like an infant. But, my goal in life is to do that to greatest extent possible, and I've found that by getting away from emotion-based religious/spiritual beliefs the world begins to make a whole lot more sense. Doesn't mean you get rid of emotions, but you recognize how your feelings can get in the way of objective truth. Still, in some ways I think you need to feel to really understand others, and it's something you have to keep monitoring as far as the conlclusions you reach. Also, removing the need to believe in something greater doesn't in itself make you a less caring or loving person contrary to what religion says. When you're trying to get to the bottom of it, it can kind of make you feel like you're going out of your mind at first to get through all the layers of programming. But there can be a big reward for real introspection, if you can stay sane enough to get through the process.
Elsewhere- Damn straight.
The Frog- You make a good point, once you've realized it you can either let the ignorance of others get to you or you can try and focus your understanding more constructively. Sometimes though I guess you just need to vent the frustration, but it can help to remember that you didn't always understand what you do now.
tetrapod.sapien- Very interesting reflection there, I've faced that same dillema. It's difficult to escape the desire for transcendence. When you're really busy just trying to live life, the question kind of just fades. But eventually in those times of reflection you wonder where things with humanity can or might go. I think a greater degree of transcendence could happen or is happening, but I'm doubtful it's part of some ultimate grand purpose of some kind. I would define it has significantly greater freedom from fear, hate, abuse and violence...but never reaching some ultimate perfection that cannot be improved upon.
JamesThomas- I think you and Terry are saying the same thing...lol. -
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JW ghost, demon, superstition stories
by RunningMan ini would like to write an article outlining some of the goofy stories that jws believe.
for example, when i was young, this story went around: .
a couple decided that they would miss the meeting to go to see a hypnotist.
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Sentient
Those stories were so ridiculous, but I remember hearing every single one you mentioned and those myths were the kinds of things that went a long way it keeping you scared and in ignorance. There were many stories actually in the publications about experiences with demons, hypnotists, churches and every other thing that keeps them deathly afraid. No wonder at first I had great difficulty with fear of demons after leaving. I remember in my first public talk including an experience of how ridiculous superstitions and myths were used to keep individuals trapped in Bablyonish captivity. Ha!
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Did Anyone Try to Warn You About the WTS?
by tmo1965 indid anyone try to warn you about the wts before you saw the light?
how did you react to the info?
did you resent the person / people who told you?
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Sentient
In retrospect, though I was fairly well sheltered growing up as a Witness, with all the time I spent out in field service I did come across certain people who tried to explain different things to me on numerous occasions. Of course, at the time I felt sad for them that they had been deceived by the Devil or were just misinformed.
One man gave me "apostate literature" and the elder who was with me at the door later angrily demanded that I throw it into the nearest trash can we could find after we got into the service car...and I remember what stuck in my mind most about that was the elder's angry reaction which seemed unreasonable to me.
A man I tried to Witness to at a gas station once told me something to effect of, "Watchtower, eh? Oh, yeah, they're a huge corporation, own stocks and everything. Running a big business up there in Brooklyn. It's all about the money." When I tried to explain to him about the voluntary work and donations, he just kind of felt sorry for me and I remember feeling kind of angry that HE would feel sorry for ME...lol.
At least a couple of times another Christian eager to "save" me (in their own way) tried to explain that the Watchtower had deceived me and wanted me to see their truth about Jesus...but of course that only ended with both of us being frustrated because I was adept at refuting all doctrinal arguments.
And I also remember some apostataprotesters outside of a district convention when I was a small boy, my brother actually ended up briefly on the TV news that night with a reporter trying to ask him what he thought of the protesters but he gave no comment and quickly went back inside the convention hall in fear. I'll never forget the atmosphere among the Witnesses of fear and contempt for the apostates...no wonder I feared them so much later in life, I had many lessons along the way.
It kind of reminds me in the film, the Truman Show...in fact that was one of the greatest influences that caused me to subconsciously begin to question my reality. I remember the guy who came down in a parachute with a sign, "YOU'RE ON TV!" or something like that. And the guy who popped out of the birthday box, "TRUMAN, IT'S TELEVISION!" Or the girl who got a few brief moments to try to explain to him the fraud that was his world...and the way those words even though he could not understand them always stayed with him though he went on to live his dull life. After I became somewhat obsessed with that movie, I started to suspect that there was something suspicious about my little world.