Something else to consider that is driving us to civil war, it is the disallowing of dissenting opinions. Censorship of speech. Intolerance of discourse. As much as an asshole as Trump is, and as dumb of stuff as he says, he's not leading that charge.
freemindfade
JoinedPosts by freemindfade
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Encouraging the nasty angels of our nature
by Lee Elder ini see stories like this one, and think we are losing our way as a nation.
reverting to tribalism and racism.
i wonder if its always been there lurking beneath the surface, and it just took someone to encourage it a bit.. https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/woman-berates-man-viral-rant-don-lemon-cnntv/index.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-06-26t08%3a30%3a04&utm_term=link&utm_source=fbcnn.
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Encouraging the nasty angels of our nature
by Lee Elder ini see stories like this one, and think we are losing our way as a nation.
reverting to tribalism and racism.
i wonder if its always been there lurking beneath the surface, and it just took someone to encourage it a bit.. https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/woman-berates-man-viral-rant-don-lemon-cnntv/index.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-06-26t08%3a30%3a04&utm_term=link&utm_source=fbcnn.
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freemindfade
Obama justified racial violence and tried to bias criminal cases. He was definitely more articulate, charismatic and a great orator (more like a cult leader than Trump, for all the accusations of the opposite). But when it came to policy he made things worse.
Obama would have made a good President in a movie or a TV sitcom dad. He came across as good as possible. Behind the scenes, he violated the constitution more than any other president I'm aware of. He also played his part in dividing the country, feeding the myths that created the dogma of BLM.
The division we see today started probably about 20-30 years ago legitimately. It takes time to get here, not just with one election. Politics has been slipping from civility over that time, and you can blame both parties. But now here we are, who are pushing the divide harder and faster right now? Either side can be vile, but you have to look at who is pulling the Overton window, controlling speech and culture, and you will see who is burning this shit down.
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Encouraging the nasty angels of our nature
by Lee Elder ini see stories like this one, and think we are losing our way as a nation.
reverting to tribalism and racism.
i wonder if its always been there lurking beneath the surface, and it just took someone to encourage it a bit.. https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/woman-berates-man-viral-rant-don-lemon-cnntv/index.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-06-26t08%3a30%3a04&utm_term=link&utm_source=fbcnn.
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freemindfade
Yep. POTUS set the example and people feel encouraged
Gonna call BS on that. Its true Trump is not civil, but its crazy to blame him for every evil in the world and the source of all that is wrong. To think Turmp just showed up one day and everyone started acting out is foolish, to say the least.
America was well divided before the 2016 election, Trump didn't create the rift, he just came out of it.
News flash utopian dreamers, there will always be racist, nasty people. And someone like Trump displays an attitude of not being civil, but everyone who joins him in that is showing they prefer to be on that level. And that includes most the MSM, most celebrities, and most subscribing to a radical (ignorant) leftist narrative. They are no better than him but promoting more violence and unrest than him, his supporters, or anyone else.
The more the prevailing culture drag the Overton window left off the map, the more enraged the opposition to PC will become. The likes of Maxine Waters and the rest of the rabid leftists who CLAIM to hate trump so bad prove they are actually more like him than anyone else.
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Are we losing our way a bit at JWN?
by nicolaou infirstly, i want to be crystal clear how grateful i am for jwn.
it's been my place of support for over seventeen years and it's the first online space i direct anyone to if they are taking steps out of the cult.
i am not bashing jwn - i love this place and appreciate the hard work and expense simon puts in to keep it going.
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freemindfade
That was actually me that said that not Sir lol
If we all applied the Socratic method we would find we have far more in common than we think, then we just debate the little stuff. It's not as offensive
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Are we losing our way a bit at JWN?
by nicolaou infirstly, i want to be crystal clear how grateful i am for jwn.
it's been my place of support for over seventeen years and it's the first online space i direct anyone to if they are taking steps out of the cult.
i am not bashing jwn - i love this place and appreciate the hard work and expense simon puts in to keep it going.
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freemindfade
Fink I'm smacking my head right now... what are you doing
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Cults in our Midst
by Lee Elder inthis is related to a comment i made in a previous thread.
cults exist in many diverse parts of society.
this includes politics.
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freemindfade
Political leaders aren't demanding that their followers cut off association with members of the opposite party/candidate under penalty of shunning; the people doing the shunning are doing it of their own accord.
Oh really?
“They’re not going to be able to go to a restaurant, they’re not going to be able to stop at a gas station, they’re not going to be able to shop at a department store,” “The people are going to turn on them, they’re going to protest, they’re going to absolutely harass them.”
Waters seemed adamant the protests would continue until cabinet members tell Trump, “No, I can’t hang with you."-Maxine WatersSounds like exactly whats going on to me
The following is from the Washington Post:
The latest sign of political divide: Shaming and shunning public officials
Anger and division in American politics are creating a rising phenomenon: the public shaming and shunning of political figures while they are going about their private lives.
Pam Bondi, the Florida attorney general who often appears on Fox News and is closely aligned with President Trump, was shouted down at a movie screening in Tampa on Friday. “You are a horrible person!” one protester screamed at Bondi. The local newspaper reported that Bondi was escorted out of the theater by police.
Hecklers shouted “Shame!” at Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, a public face of Trump’s immigration policies, hastening her departure from a Mexican restaurant near the White House last week. Protesters even posted video of that encounter on Facebook.
Trump adviser and immigration hard-liner Stephen Miller also was confronted at a restaurant last week and called a “fascist.”
Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) this weekend encouraged harassment of Trump officials in public spaces.
A sitting Democratic congresswoman has called for violence against those on the right, let that sink in -
80
Are we losing our way a bit at JWN?
by nicolaou infirstly, i want to be crystal clear how grateful i am for jwn.
it's been my place of support for over seventeen years and it's the first online space i direct anyone to if they are taking steps out of the cult.
i am not bashing jwn - i love this place and appreciate the hard work and expense simon puts in to keep it going.
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freemindfade
We have to give culture a nod on the amount of political discussion here and everywhere, movies, TV shows, ones I used to love, the news, literally every medium right now, is trying to politicize literally everything. EVERYTHING. I used to love late night comedy, it is nonexistent now in the way I used to know it. There has always been a political element to comedy, and TV. And they teased everyone and it was funny. It's not funny anymore because literally, everything has a political slant. And they aren't even trying to get laughter, they are trying to get "clappter". The comedy comes from a spiteful place demanding you agree with or be labeled accordingly. They are apology tours for the latest person to break the PC rules of our ever-increasing thought-policed society. So shows I used to watch like the daily show, SNL, they aren't getting laughs, instead, they are getting people to agree with the accepted narrative and clap in agreement. So I think its fair to say in a society where every iota of life is put into the political space, and you can't escape it, it's going to bleed into everything by nature. We are simultaneously fatigued and engaged in it to no end.
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Are we losing our way a bit at JWN?
by nicolaou infirstly, i want to be crystal clear how grateful i am for jwn.
it's been my place of support for over seventeen years and it's the first online space i direct anyone to if they are taking steps out of the cult.
i am not bashing jwn - i love this place and appreciate the hard work and expense simon puts in to keep it going.
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freemindfade
When you leave the high control of the JWS, you were used to your words, thoughts, and ability to explore new ideas and disagree, to have challenging discussions. I think the politics turn into too many threads on the same subject, also there is not enough discussing of policy, philosophy, and history. I do feel political discussion in this JW forum is a barometer for peoples tolerance of your expressing different opinions.
I have friends on this board that in our own group chat off of her disagree about several things (political) and the discussions are intense, but they are always about the issues, the disagreement and debate is at a high level. And everyone remains close regardless of how intense it gets.
So I see politics and social issues as a barometer for EXJWS how much they allow themselves to understand things first before speaking about them, especially emotionally. Also how they engage disagreement, and it's interesting to see who resorts to the old tactics first, of demonizing the person with the opposing thought, appealing to emotion over logic. Politics, especially in today polarized divide, is a good mental exercise for how you approach the debate. Not which view you hold.
When we discuss these things we should always try to reaffirm what the other person actually believes, and discuss from there because many times we all share the same big principles. I have tried to dig at some opponents on here in political discussions only to find they seem to have no point of view, they are just angry. I find it an interesting exercise in how far each of us has come to combat groupthink and come to our own opinions out of facts, not the raw emotion of the group.
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55
Cults in our Midst
by Lee Elder inthis is related to a comment i made in a previous thread.
cults exist in many diverse parts of society.
this includes politics.
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freemindfade
Unfortunately, this is just another mindless Trump bashing thread and it seems the people on the forum just won't give it a rest.
Bashing Trump is totally fine with me, the guy makes a great target, I just think its lame to carry that over to debating policy as a way to degrade your opponent's moral character so they aren't allowed to have an opinion.
To me, it's this simple
Criticizing trump for bad stuff is good
Acknowledging if he does something good is good
Trying to criticize him over absolutely everything imaginable gets absurd.
The guy could literally cure cancer and the celebrities, and media, and all the noisy sanctimonious people would bitch bitch bitch. "well he did it and now Doctors are gonna go out of business, STUPID TRUMP". That thinking is where I think we lose control of critical thinking.
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Cults in our Midst
by Lee Elder inthis is related to a comment i made in a previous thread.
cults exist in many diverse parts of society.
this includes politics.
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freemindfade
As I said before, Trump may have the personality of a Cult leader, I may have that personality and a lot of people might, but you don't have a cult until you have a follower and an ideology. Trump is not an ideology, and while he may have a handful of fanatics who would be "followers", you can't simply state that any who disagrees with you is in the cult of Trump. How can we ever have any political discussion ever if those of you beating this drum, resort to it? It stops the discussion.
It doesn't matter what logical points you make, what facts you state, “nope, you are in the cult of trump” immediately lower your moral status and disregard whatever is said”
Consider this.
What is the main thing that that really makes a cult a cult? What keeps them together and going? Its not simply a “cult leader” it’s a system of control.
How do JWS keep the sheep in the heard? While there are several things that make a cult a cult, the most powerful tool is Political Correctness. Controlled language, which leads to controlled thought. Shaming and dismissing of dissenting views, censorship. These all run in the same vein and are the life blood of high control, group thinking cults. Political correctness serves to bring conformity, a lockstep in behavior.
Now let’s think about this in the context of the political climate of today in America. Where is the political correctness festering and growing? Which faction in today’s political spectrum uses isolation, threats, and routine shaming to silence those who cross them? The dreaded labels of “racist” “bigot” “trump supporter chills opposition in its tracks. The same way “apostate” or “suppressive person” does. Its not meant to challenge and idea, or a policy, its meant put you into a frame of mind where you will ostracize anyone for expressing an “incorrect” view, that is how cults thrive and maintain.
Bash Trump all you want, bash republicans, bash people that defending either when the criticism strays into the absurd, but that climate of controlling the very speech we use is spewing out of the left at an alarming rate. Who is shouting down speakers on college campuses? Inciting shaming mobs on social media?
Just this last week we have seen leftist mobs harassing members of Trumps administration, we have seen the likes of Maxine Waters calling for more of the same, we have seen the shaming, and shunning and its not coming from the Trump camp. Hell even if Trump wanted to, which perhaps he does, he could never wield a powerful propaganda campaign via the MSM. The MSM is political action arm of the Democratic party, and they are going off the rails. Out right lying, using false images that incite emotional responses, controlling the information bandwidth of millions.
Cults typically set up extreme us vs them dichotomies. People outside the cult are demonized and dehumanized. The divide between good and evil goes between the members of the sect and those on the outside.
In the last decade or so, polarization has been increasing dramatically in American politics, and the left largely drives this division. I hate to break it to you, but this started well before Trump. The right has moved little, and people who traditionally have defined themselves as liberal increasingly find themselves vilified for being “far right.” Cult 101
Cults usually see themselves as chosen ones, morally elevated above everyone else, with exclusive rights and privileges. This pattern also manifests itself on the left, particularly in intersectionality, or what in popular culture has been called Oppression Olympics. The most prominent victim is hailed as the greatest hero and gets to dictate the rules for everyone else. There is one set of rules for the members of the privileged left and another entirely for the rest of us.
But still, as mentioned before, the most tell tail sign of cult behavior is this prevalence towards intolerant political correctness to cult speech and dogma. Cults do not tolerate dissenters and independent thinking.
Any member who questions any tenet of the cult is severely reprimanded and ultimately ostracized. Even though I don’t really care what most celebrity’s views are on politics, you could see this in action in real time with Kanye West. Kanye expressed his opinion, and what happened? The “congregation” lost their shit. It is a well-known public secret that being openly conservative in Hollywood is the same as never getting hired. When the famous gay editor Chadwick Moore came out of the closet as conservative, he received death threats and lost most of his friends overnight.
The Cato 2017 Free Speech and Tolerance poll found that 71% of Americans believe political correctness has silenced important discussions in society, and 58% believe the political climate prevents them from sharing their political views. Where is that coming from? That fear to express your beliefs reflects a level of intolerance we usually associate with despotic regimes, not with a supposedly free society.
So you guys can make all the Trump cult BS comments you want, that’s fine. But if you and I want to debate a political subject, when you play the card that me or anyone like me is in the “trump cult” all you are doing is censoring discussion without effort.