Posts by Trojan

19

Is There A Happy Balance To Deprogramming A Witness?

by minimus in

jw
friends

it's not easy to help a jw see that they are misled.

i see thatsometimes you can get them to really see a matter clearly and other times they feel like you're beating them up.

i had a conversation with my mom yesterday and it's funny----sometimes she'll accept it all and other times she doesn't want to deal.

Trojan

I think it is possible. But not EASY or happy. A couple of days ago, there was another thread about the question why some witnesses become inactive, even have "wordly" girlfriends/boyfriends, but still hang on to their former beliefs (blood, holidays, voting, etc.)....they have a belief structure that is partially JW beliefs and in part their new found ideas.....

I think that most JW went through a programming that was heavily pushed on them - think about the process: bible study (some guy sitting in your home, personally repeating the same ideas over and over again), than all the meetings, assemblies, literature.....

.....now, to the answer, how do you "reverse" that? It would take the same amount of effort, time. You would either need the same "machinery" working on you in the opposite direction OR you need to be a person with strong mental abilities to detect what is part of the programming and "un-programm" yourself. Most aren't in the latter position. Specially, most people that become JW aren't very strong in that (otherwise they couldn't have been deceived so easily), many had depressions (or still have) and are on the weaker side emotionally, so there you have it: trapped!

As for your mother, in order to give up her beliefs, she will need others to substitute. It's like somebody that needs to change his/her home/house, because the roof is leaking and the place is shabby, but can't move out into "the nothing"....there most be another house ready to move in, otherwise they won't do it. But if you don't have the money or energy=mental, spiritual, emotional energy to go and look for another place or even build a new one by yourself, than you're stuck to the present "home of thoughts/beliefs/faith" - and you know what? I have met people that KNOW they're in a shabby, humid, dirty place, but have become used to it and have so many memories attached to it, and are lazy to change their lives, that they prefer to just stay.

Trojan.

31

acWhy do you use the term "Apostate"?

by Trojan in

i see that several of you use the term "apostate" or call themselves "apostates".

the problem i have with using the term is that you continue to follow wtbts thinking of "branding and labeling" people.

they charge that word with lots of negativity and label people that have different thoughts.

Trojan

I see that several of you use the term "apostate" or call themselves "apostates". The problem I have with using the term is that you continue to follow WTBTS thinking of "branding and labeling" people. They charge that word with lots of negativity and label people that have different thoughts. If I finally leave this Org. I would not accept the term, as it implies an "abandoning of faith", but many of you (if not most) have a faith - you abandoned the faith that has been described and designed by the WT architects, but some of you still have faith in Jesus, the Bible, other deities, Aliens, Evolution, etc.etc.

It's kinda like using terms that the Nazis used to label other people (like "Gypsies", many of them prefer the policital correct name of "Sinti and Roma", or the Nazis used terms like Arians, etc.). I know that it's kind of hard to avoid the term and completely remove it, but to me it implies that you still accept the WT thinking on the subject. It implies they have the true faith, which the apostate has lost.

Invite you to reflect. I welcome definitions and your thoughts. Why apply the term to ourself??? I don't particularly feel like an "apostate".

Why not say: "Freedomlovers", "Freethinkers", "Open minded people", "Tolerant people"

(This thought popped into my mind after reading an WT article on fanatism (Watchtower 15 July 1987, pag. 28 par. 1,2), that stated "CHRISTENDOM has had its fanatics—from people who set themselves on fire in political protest to individuals acting intolerantly toward those holding different religious views. For example, the first Crusade was inspired by the Catholic Church to free Jerusalem from the hands of people she considered to be infidels. It began with three undisciplined mobs whose violent excesses included a pogrom of Jews in the Rhineland. When the military forces of this Crusade succeeded in taking Jerusalem, these so-called Christian soldiers turned the streets into rivers of blood." (end of quote)

I know that this goes into the topic of fanatism, but I think it is related to my question, since this article says that fanatism is a form of intolerance and labeling people as "fallen away" etc.etc. IS A FORM of religious INTOLERANCE.

Websters defines "apostate" as follows: http://m-w.com/dictionary/apostasy

Maybe I'm wrong with some of my premises on the term, please correct me.

Trojan.

26

My first post

by not in not out in

jw
friends

i have been lurking on and off for a year or so now so i would like to make a brief introduction.

1954 born .

1962 cuban missile crisis .

Trojan

...Cuban missile crisis

What congregation was that? There are lots of crisis in different halls i have visited....never heard of this one....

Welcome my friend. Enjoy. Tell us your frustrations. Have a laugh.

Trojan.

25

10 Reasons why the WTBTS is NOT a CORP... Bethel Lecture by GB Member Losch

by What-A-Coincidence in

of the 10 points mentioned that the wtbts is not a corp, which one do you not agree on and why?

personnel committee symposium.

february 22, 1999 .

Trojan

LOL, ozziepost.....almost forgot about that one: i absolutely hate that little instructive manual. I never get it right (can i put the underwear on top of the jeans? No, damned....wrong again....Ok....first the shirts...than the underwear, than the leather lingerie.....damned, I shouldn't send the sexy stuff to the laundry.....Ok, start all over again.......)

This is only to do laundry! And then they give a talk about: not controlling others with excessive manuals.....aaaarrrghhh

Trojan.

25

10 Reasons why the WTBTS is NOT a CORP... Bethel Lecture by GB Member Losch

by What-A-Coincidence in

of the 10 points mentioned that the wtbts is not a corp, which one do you not agree on and why?

personnel committee symposium.

february 22, 1999 .

Trojan

3. …creating artificial work when there is not enough work for everyone to do. Creating excessive and detailed manuals take away the dignity of the worker. It says that they are not able to do the work without detailed instructions, although there are some who may need such details. It does not admit that there are too many people in the department.

This one gave me a good laugh! He's obviously never seen some of the nice manuals they produce! You should see the "Housekeeper" manual (a manual that all the sisters use in Brk and other branches to do the daily cleaning routines in the rooms). By last count it is at least 200 pages!!! 200 pages to tell some poor souls on HOW to get rid of the dust! This manual dictates every step along the routine (even in what direction to weap the shower)....it is so absolutely ridiculous....I have told some other poor fellows here, that if an Hotel would follow these guidelines, they would end up bankrupt.

If you read this, being an Bethelite, you can only laugh.....there is a "Waiters" manual and many more.....each one of them, is thick like a brick!

LOL and LOL again to this one.

Trojan.

34

OK, I't My Turn As The Newbie

by BlackPearl in

jw
friends

i'm not sure where to start, probably in two major areas.

mechanics thing, that can't work, and what i see as the lack of true love in the brotherhood.

i've been in "the truth" or lack thereof, for about 30 years, give or take a little.

Trojan

Dear Blackpearl:

I really liked the kind spirit you show with your first post! Also liked the illustration (metaphor) you used (i love good illustrations - if they fit the subject and are not used to create mental pictures that are simple lies). People like you and me, and many of the others on this forum aren't "made" for an organization that is more of an corporation than anything else (well, under the cover of an religion). I daily see correspondence between branches and GB, and it is "cold" and "businesslike". Blow the brotherhood thing away....and you're ok in this organization. Although, as I write this it hurts to say so, since I have known soo many good, really good people that where atracted by that illusion of an "spiritual paradise" and get burned by rules, rules, rules, policies, policies....to the heck, they never find what they where searching for! You know that at any elders school they spent more talks about "you shouldn't watch movies" you "shouldn't do this", "you should not that" than with: love your next. The last course was an example of it.

As I have to deal a lot with Gilead missionaries, it showed me that somethings totally wrong with the Org. They spent countless hours hearing talks, speeches and reading Bible/WT literature and 85% of the ones I know are a bunch of heartless hipocrites. ....holes.....Sorry, I get carried away with that one. But, I hear the reports on how they treat the local brothers in the countries they're sent and it literally breaks my heart....They're after privileges and ranking, nothing else.

As some others have mentioned, this place lets you feel free and refreshed. Be yourself, enjoy the love of this community (not all are all "sweet" and "fluffy", but some have had bad experiences and need their vent, so be patient and forgive).

Count on my friendship and love.

Yours in LOVE,

Trojan.

43

Another Newbie

by TooBad TooSad in

jw
friends

i have been reading and enjoying the posts here for over 2 years.

i have been a witness for over 30 years.

i am going to the meetings just to keep peace in the family.

Trojan

Welcome to this forum! As you can see I'm kinda new, too. This forum is becoming a wonderful self-healing therapy. I don't know this people personally, but have lots and lots in common with most of them....at the beginning I felt very nervous, posting my first comments....but it goes away (little by little). I have been "raised in the truth" and are still an bethel elder.....( I'm wondering how long I can play this "cat and mouse" game....at times it's emotinally consuming at others I get an incredible thrill.....)

Most of the folks here treat you like a friend, that is how they have treated me so far. I've got lots and lots of PM (personal messages) and most of them comforting. Actually very comforting. There are very colorful characters "aboard", but you will like them as they represent the way humans are:

bright and colorful and not BLACK AND WHITE! I despite the "black and white" thinking. Anyhow, I hope you don't live too much up to your nickname!

Welcome my friend,

Trojan.

20

'Let's see what the Society says about it first.."

by stillAwitness in

jw
friends

...so said my dear 'ol mom after her and my dad made reservations for this year's district convention and realized that another hotel on the lodging list had a cheaper rate.

she figured that calling up the previous hotel to cancel was against the society's rules counsel listed in the km about making reservations.

so she spends the next 20 minutes looking all over the house for the km to make sure there are no rules against cancelling a reservation already made with a hotel since "we don't want to bring on reproach on jehovah's name.

Trojan

I guess the Brooklyn Bible $cholars spend most of their time asking "what would Donald Trump do in this situation"

Good point unclebruce!

Or how about:

"what would Johnnie Cochran do in our situation?" (http://www.answers.com/topic/johnnie-cochran-lawyer?method=6)

Trojan.

368

The Wild Beast has both a Name & Number. Do you know what the NAME is?

by Schizm in

as shown by the text below, the 7-headed wild beast has a name.. 16 and it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.

18 here is where wisdom comes in: let the one that has intelligence calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a mans number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

of course the beast's "number" is "666" -- but that's not it's "name".

Trojan

Oh, I'm so sorry.....i interrupted your little lecture here......well,....can I participate? I didn't understand.......beast!!!!

Here's the complete story about the beast: http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/beastiality/lv18_23a.html

Do I score some points?

Trojan.

368

The Wild Beast has both a Name & Number. Do you know what the NAME is?

by Schizm in

as shown by the text below, the 7-headed wild beast has a name.. 16 and it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.

18 here is where wisdom comes in: let the one that has intelligence calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a mans number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

of course the beast's "number" is "666" -- but that's not it's "name".

Trojan

Damn, I just woke up.....was sleeping so nicely, and now had to come back to read your post (I couldn't sleep over your little riddle here.....)

I will try to keep my eyes open.....really, I promise....so I don't miss anything you're explaining.....go on....I'm all ears for these wonderfull bits of truth....

Trojan.