Hellrider: Don't want to upset Blondie, so I'll debate with you by personal messages.
scout575
JoinedPosts by scout575
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
Carla: I left JWs last September feeling very grateful for the many years that I had spent in their company. I had come to the realization that the Bible isn't from god, and so I had no choice but to leave Christianity. I would have left whatever Christian group I had been a part of.
One of the first things that eroded my faith is the gospel writers taking liberties with the Hebrew Scriptures. At Matthew 2:6, for instance, a quotation is made from Micah 5:2, and presented as a Messianic prophecy that was fulfilled by Jesus. However, the context of Micah 5:2 shows clearly that the 'ruler' foretold in that verse could not have been Jesus. In verse 6 it foretells that the 'ruler' of verse 2, would: "Deliver us ( the Israelites ) from the Assyrian." History shows that the Assyrians disappeared centuries before Jesus was born, and so the 'ruler' of Micah 5:2 simply could not have been Jesus, as Matthew claims.
This, and many other examples like it, show how Bible writers are quite prepared to use 'spin' in order to support their pre-suppositions. The above 'Messianic' prophecy is cited by Christians as one of the 'jewels in the crown' of Messianic prophecies, and yet it is simply a blatant misrepresentaion of Micah's words.
Jesus' early followers believed that he had fulfilled Micah 5:2, and many other supposed Messianic prophecies. If they hadn't have believed that he had fulfilled those 'prophecies' Christianity would have never got started. What a shame that Christianity has, at its root, such obvious distortion of the Hebrew Scriptures.
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
Carla: I'm surprised that you raise the point about 'evasiveness' as you're obviously familiar with the Bible.
When Rahab ( later presented by Paul as as an example to Christians - Heb 11:31 ) was asked by the representatives of the King of Jericho, where she had hidden the Israelite spies, told them that the spies had left her home, and that she didn't know where they were, when really she had hidden them in her roof ( Joshua 2: 3-6 ). This is 'evasiveness', and is the kind of thing JWs would use, when, as in the above scenario, they are addressing enemies who want to bring harm to them, or their brothers and sisters.
Its Scriptural precedents like this that JWs follow, in the extremely rare instances where the above sort of scenario is faced ( notice that the Bible doesn't condemn Rahab for her evasiveness, rather she is put forward as an example for Christians to follow - James 2:25 ). Unsurprisingly, in my 22 years as a Witness I never came across a situation where I had to be 'evasive' ( Britain is a mature, multi-party, liberal democracy - unlike ancient Jericho ).
If you're calling the honesty of JWs into question, I can only say that I found the JWs I knew to be scrupulously honest, to the point of, if they found something of value, they would hand it in to the police, rather than take the view of 'finders keepers, losers weepers'. Obviously, there are always going to be people within JWs who aren't honest, but I suspect that applies to every single religious organization on earth, even your own, dare I say?
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
Carla: Are you looking at those WT quotes according to your own pre-suppositions rather than reading whats actually there? If JWs say that they are offering salvation, then why in 22 years as JW did I NEVER get that impression? At the risk of repeating myself, JWs believe that being part of the true religion is necessary for salvation in the same way that they believe that being honest is necessary for salvation. Just as they believe that it isn't the honesty itself that gives them salvation, so they believe that it ISN'T the true religion itself that gives them salvation.
How could anyone in their right mind believe that a religion can save anyone? How can one human save another? Its ludicrous. When Paul says to Timothy: "Thou shalt both SAVE thyself, and them that hear thee." ( 1Tim 4:16 ) are you going to accuse Paul or Timothy of claiming to be able to offer salvation to people ( rather than god himself )? Paul is merely saying that Timothy can offer some spiritual help to people, which, if acted upon, would result in GOD saving those people. JWs take exactly the same view.
I bet you're as tired of this as me, Carla. Best wishes by the way!
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
Carla: Thanks for your reply, but NONE of those quotes say that JWs are offering salvation. They are merely saying that for a person to gain salvation BY GOD, they need to be a part of the true religion ( which JWs believe is the organization associated with the WTS ).
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that salvation comes to those who have faith in the saving power of Jesus' shed blood ( Eph 1:7 ). But, anyone who has genuine faith in Jesus' sacrifice would demonstrate that faith by his obedience to god's requirements ( any Christian who flouts god's requirements would be evidencing a lack of faith ).
Just as a Christian rejecting the Biblical requirements of honesty, chastity, etc would result in god denying salvation to that person, so JWs believe that rejection of what they consider to be the true religion, would result in god denying that person salvation. At no point is it suggested that the organization itself is offering salvation. The belief is that just as a person HAS to be honest in order for god to grant him salvation, so too, he has to be part of the true religion in order for god to grant him salvation.
By the way, having completely abandoned Christianity, I'm not an apologist for the WTS. Its just that I don't like to see ANYTHING misrepresented. If someone posted something on here saying that Born Again Christians believe that they have jump up and down in church, in order to be saved, I would want to point out that misrepresentation too.
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
Carla: When I was a Witness, not once did I read in WT publications that THEY are offering salvation. It would be ridiculous to make such an offer. Salvation was always presented as coming from God through Jesus ( 1 John 4:14 ). Of course, in order to be a recipient of salvation, a Christian can't disregard God's requirements ( Hebrews 5:9 ).
JWs believe that they have found THE true religion, and that one aspect of obedience to god, is association with that religion ( Heb 10: 24, 25 ). Rejection of that organization is viewed as disobedience to god, which disobedience would offend god. An offended god would refuse to grant salvation to the disobedient person.
Can you imagine someone asking the apostle Paul whether he thought god would save someone who rejects what Paul considered to be the true religion?. I believe that Paul would have said no. JWs take the same view. ( Please bear in mind that I'm now an agnostic, and no longer view the Bible as from god ).
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
Will Power: You say: "Using one line in Timothy to back up a Watchtower statement is half my problem with WT utterances." The practice of using one line from the Bible to support Christian utterances is seen throughout the New Testament, ie: Romans 5:17; 7;7; 8:36. To be consistent, to criticise the WTS for quoting ( or paraphrasing ) the Bible in this way, must reflect an implied criticism of Bible writers, who do the same thing.
At 1 Timothy 4:16, the writer tells Timothy that he is able to: 'SAVE himself AND them that HEAR him'. The lesson from this verse is that those who 'heard' Timothy preach, would become 'saved' as a result. The WTS is doing nothing disingenuous ( or 'arrogant', 'ant-Christian', or 'disgusting' ) in Paraphrasing this verse, and applying it to Christian efforts to 'save' those who 'hear them'.
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
jgnat: I was surprised that the WTS is so heavily cricitcized by Will Power, for merely paraphrasing the Bible. Bible writers themselves paraphrase earlier parts of the Bible ( Jude 18; 2 Peter 3:3 ), and it seems odd that anyone who believes in the Bible would find that objectionable.
The paraphrase that the WTS used in the article, was based on 1 Tim 4:16, and can quite innocuously be applied to the efforts of Christians to preach and teach. If JWs are to be criticized for that paraphrase, then to be consistent, the writer of 1 Tim 4:16 should also be criticized.
The WTS harmless use of 1 Tim 4:16, is in sharp contrast to the very misleading use of Scripture seen in the gospels. The writer of Matthew even appeals to a so-called Messianic prohecy that doesn't exist. He portrays Jesus' upbringing in Nazareth as having been prophesied in the Old Testament, with the words: "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene." ( Matt 2:23 ) The fact is, the Old Testament prophets don't anywhere say 'he shall be called a Nazarene'. I'm sure we can all imagine the outrage of Christian posters, on this site, if the WTS were to follow in Matthew's footsteps, and be as blatantly disingenuous as him.
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UK & IRELAND MAP
by ballistic ini had an idea that i could build a uk map of everyones location which would show you instantly who is in your area from jwd.. (it might be an idea to do a seperate us one aswell but i'll wait and see if this one takes off first, or if anyone from the us wants to volunteer to do that one).
(and australia but you are all in the same backyard anyway - literally!!!).
anyway, all you have to do is post or email me your username and town and i will draw you on the map above which will change gradually to include everyone!.
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scout575
Ballistic: Please include me, I'm from Northamptonshire.
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Comments You Will Not Year at the 3-12-06 WT Study(Witness/Nations)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the march 12, 2006 wt study (february 1, 2006 issue, pages 22-26)(witness/nations).
review comments will be in red.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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scout575
Will Power: I'm an agnostic now, but I was surprised to read your posting earlier. You quote from the Watchtower article where it says: "By doing so, we will save ourselves and those who listen to us." You describe this statement as the "ultimate in boastful arrogance aswell as about as anti-Christian as you can get. This is their self-serving message. They prop themselves up in the holy place, thats disgusting."
In making the above statement, The Watchtower is paraphrasing Paul's words to Timothy, where he says: "For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." ( 1 Tim 4:16 ) Was Paul's statement 'the ultimate in boastful arrogance aswell as about as anti-Christain as you can get'? Was his a 'self-serving message'? Did he 'prop himself up in the holy place'? Was that 'disgusting'?