Posts by scout575

24

Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 21-05-06 Church Sermon.

by scout575 in

"but when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily i say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of israel till the son of man be come.

" ( matthew 10:23 ).

"for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

scout575

A Paduan: What makes you think that Jesus, "coming in his Kingdom", is to be equated with his post-resurrection appearances to his apostles?

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

A Paduan: You question why I understand the word ''hear", at Acts 3:23 to mean 'obey'. If the word "hear", in this context simply means to listen, that would mean that anyone merely listening to Jesus would escape the threatened punishment of destruction. I as an atheist often 'listen' to Jesus, as I read the Bible, but I doubt whether the writer of Acts 3:23 would fancy my chances of escaping the threatened punishment of being "destroyed". Its my failure to comply with what I "hear", my failure to obey that, according to this verse, puts me in line for being "destroyed".

As for your understanding of the word "destroyed", in this verse: When Ananias and Sapphira failed to "hear" ( obey ) Jesus ( in that they 'lied to the Holy Spirit' ), what did their being "destroyed" mean for them? There was nothing figurative about their being "destroyed". They were simply executed by heaven.

24

Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 21-05-06 Church Sermon.

by scout575 in

"but when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily i say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of israel till the son of man be come.

" ( matthew 10:23 ).

"for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

scout575

R51785: Did "ALL the tribes of the earth mourn" and "see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory", by 70 A.D? A Paduan: Did some of Jesus' listeners really live to see the "Son of man coming in his kingdom"?

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

scout575

A Paduan: I'm not claiming that the Scriptures were written be "ancient idiots". I just think they were written by ancient spin-meisters.

You refer to my quote from Acts 3: 22,23, and say: "There's no "obey all things whatsoever", there's no, "you will be executed." Are we reading the same Bible? I'm quoting from the KJV, and at the risk of repeating myself somewhat, it says: "Him ( Jesus- verse 20 ) shall ye hear in ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER he shall say to you....every soul which will not hear that prophet shall be DESTROYED from among the people." I don't see how the text could be any clearer than that.

This is in harmony with Hebrews 10:28-31: "He that despised Moses' law DIED WITHOUT MERCY under two or three witnesses. OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God...Vengeance belongeth unto me...the Lord shall judge his people...it is a fearful thing to fall into thee hands of the living God."

Yes, I'm not "calmed" by texts such as these. They quite clearly teach teach that God will execute those who reject Jesus. Forgive me if I find these texts unappealing.

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

scout575

Sad Emo: You say: " I'd interpret the branches that bear no fruit and wither as those who PRETEND to be Christians....No Christian properly grafted in will be fruitless."

What about all the people who now use ex-Christian websites and message boards? Many of them were clearly genuine, heartfelt Christians ( Not "pretend" ones ) and yet they became 'unfruitful' because they came to regard Christianity as just another ancient susperstition. As they are now, 'not hearing' Jesus, Acts 3:23 says that they "shall be destroyed."

Maybe people leave Christianity, not because of any failure on their part, not because they were "pretend" Christians, but because of a failure of Christianity itself, and because Christianity itself is pretending to be something that it isn't, i.e, a God-given religion.

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

scout575

Sad Emo: I agree that the vine parable is referring to Jesus' disciples, and is encouraging them to remain as 'fruitful' Christians. Jesus isn't saying that as soon as a Christian becomes 'unfruitful' he will be destroyed for it. He is indicating that an 'unfruitful' Christian is as useless to him as a literally unfruitful branch of a vine is useless to a literal "husbandman" ( verse 1 ), which unfruitful branch is discarded and burnt.

However, what is the New Testament prescribed fate for Christians who cease being 'fruitful' and remain 'unfruitful' up until, "Judgement day"? As they would be no longer obeying Jesus, they face the same fate as people who were never Christians in the first place: They "shall be destroyed" ( Acts 3:23 ). Hardly 'friendly", is it?

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

scout575

A Paduan: I'm not trying to deny that the NT teaches that God forgives sinners. I'm also not denying that the NT teaches that Jesus will execute those who don't obey him. You ask: "Where does it say that you have to obey Jesus absolutely, or else...?" How about Acts 3:22,23?

"For Moses said unto the fathers, A prophet ( Jesus - verse 20 ) shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye HEAR IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SHALL SAY UNTO YOU. And it shall come to pass that EVERY SOUL, which will NOT HEAR that prophet, shall be DESTROYED from among the people."

The message is clear: Obey "all things whatsoever" Jesus commands, or you will be executed. Is that 'friendly'?

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

scout575

A Paduan: You say:

1- "They ( Ananias and Sapphira ) lied to the Holy Spirit." Then you ask: "Why do you say that they didn't obey Jesus absolutely?" Isn't 'lying to the Holy Spirit' a case of not obeying Jesus absolutely? Can a Christian be regarded as obeying Jesus absolutely if he 'lies to the Holy Spirit'?

2 -"They ( Ananias and Sapphira )...died...could have been cardiac arrest." Double, fatal heart attack? Really? At Acts 5:9,10 Peter says to Sapphira: "Behold the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and SHALL carry thee out. THEN fell she down straightway at his feet....dead." According to this, Peter KNEW IN ADVANCE that she would die. If she died of cardiac arrest, how would Peter have known IN ADVANCE that that would happen to her? The implication of this story is that Peter was somehow informed by heaven that heaven was about to execute her.

3 - "Maybe they died SPIRITUALLY." It couldn't have been that because verse 10 says that she was: "BURIED" alondside her husband. Are SPIRITUALLY dead people buried?

4 - "They themselves ( men )" mete out the "everlasting punishment" foretold at Matthew 25:41,46. Really? Who is foretold as having this role at 2 Thessalonains 1:7-9?: "...The LORD JESUS shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." Clearly, Jesus is portrayed as the great heavenly executioner. This passage predicts that he will inflict, "everlasting destruction" on "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus." That doesn't sound too 'friendly' to me.

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

scout575

A Paduan: Who are the "men" that "gather" those who "abide not" in Jesus, and who "cast them into the fire" where they are "burned"? ( John 15:6 ) Do these "men" do this against Jesus' will?

What ( according to the story ) happened to Jesus' friends Ananais and Sapphira when they didn't obey Jesus absolutely ? ( Acts 5:1-11 ) Was it "men" who executed them, or was it their 'friend' Jesus?

What does Jesus say he will do to people whom he doesn't regard as his friends?: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels....and these shall go into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT." ( Matthew 25:41,46 ) Is it "men" who mete out this "everlasting punishment" to those aren't favoured with Jesus' 'friendship', or is it 'friendly' Jesus?

53

Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan in

i no longer call you slaves,.

because a slave does not know what his master is doing.. i have called you friends,.

because i have told you everything i have heard from my father.. it was not you who chose me, but i who chose you.

scout575

A Paduan: There's no denying that you've quoted a very nice passage - John 15:15,16. If we look at the context, however, we find that thats not quite as nice. In verse 14, Jesus says: "Ye are my friends IF ye do WHATSOEVER I COMMAND YOU." Jesus' 'friendship' is dependant on absolute obedience to him. What happens to those of his "friends" who stop being absolutely obedient to him? Does he just withdraw his 'friendship'? No, In verse 6 he says: "If a man ABIDE NOT in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and is WITHERED; and men gather them, and cast them INTO THE FIRE, and they are BURNED." Jesus' message is: Do as I command or else....