Posts by AudeSapere

30

Do JWs Participate in Wars By Funding Them?

by cameo-d in

jw
friends

i think there are a lot of ways to get your hands bloody without actually joining the military or shooting a gun indiscriminately at foreigners in their own country.. can you think of ways that jws are participating in sponsoring wars without "going to war"?.

AudeSapere

It doesn't matter if it was 50%, 10%, 1%, 0.00005%. They owned shares in it. They profited from it. They are culpable.

If you are responding to my post(s), then you are still not getting it.

My question is not about culpability. I think we ALL agree they are culpable.

What my point is that if we [apostates/critics of the WTS] make a claim and throw out 'facts' and statistics as truths, we should be sure that we are throwing out accurate information. You know how everyone jumped on the thread about the supposed active bethelite calling in to a conference call?? You know how many people think it's bogus?? Presenting false statistics diminishes the presenter's credibility. The same happens to us when we fabricate facts or exagerate statistics. We lose credibility.

And it's a valuable life-skill to check your facts before presenting them.

I'm just trying to verify the math and any links you can provide to help verify is appreciated.

-Aude.

30

Do JWs Participate in Wars By Funding Them?

by cameo-d in

jw
friends

i think there are a lot of ways to get your hands bloody without actually joining the military or shooting a gun indiscriminately at foreigners in their own country.. can you think of ways that jws are participating in sponsoring wars without "going to war"?.

AudeSapere

Outlaw wrote: Even if it was a gift of just one share.. They did`nt have to accept the gift of the stock in the first place..

Outlaw - I agree with you 100%.

For them to knowingly accept one dollar from something that they vehemently condemn is inexcusable. They are quick to DF someone for smoking or eating with a disapproved relative but have zero qualms about their own much greater 'sins'. I agree.

And I also agree with wobble when he wrote:

If anyone wants to use the info. about the WT owned investment in Rand Corp I would be very careful how you word it so as to be accurate in what you accuse the WT of.

I am merely trying to verify the accuracy of this one statement which implys that they owned a 'governing share' in RandCam:

Alwayshere wrote: WTS owned 50% of a company that made war weapons.

-Aude.

30

Do JWs Participate in Wars By Funding Them?

by cameo-d in

jw
friends

i think there are a lot of ways to get your hands bloody without actually joining the military or shooting a gun indiscriminately at foreigners in their own country.. can you think of ways that jws are participating in sponsoring wars without "going to war"?.

AudeSapere

Outlaw - I'm not at all OK'g their hypocrisy in holding on to - and profitting from - the stock. They are hypocrits to keep it.

My question was simply in making sure the facts about the amount of stock was correct. Owning 50% of let's say a $1million dollar company is significantly than my having a portfolio valued at $10,000 (ten thousand dollars), and 50% of that $10,000 is with the company in question.

I know I've seen some of the documents for WTS/RandCam. I just can't find them right now and really don't remember that the WTS held the governing/controlling share.

Do you have the links to the documents that show they owned controlling share of RandCam?

-Aude.

22

elders would like a talk with me

by varian in

jw
friends

hi everyone.. i recently had a phone call from an elder of my former cong.

they would like to chat with me, and obviously want to encourage me to come back.. to make a long story short: the last 4 or five years i was a jw in their kh, i was more or less completly ignored.

had in that time no phone calls, visits or any interest how i felt etc.

AudeSapere

Billy the ex-Bethelite wrote: When they ask to arrange a date for the encouraging visit, suggest about 2 years ago.

Because if they really cared, they would have helped you when you could have used their help.

Now, you don't need their help. And if they really want to chat, they can chat with each other.

-Aude.

22

elders would like a talk with me

by varian in

jw
friends

hi everyone.. i recently had a phone call from an elder of my former cong.

they would like to chat with me, and obviously want to encourage me to come back.. to make a long story short: the last 4 or five years i was a jw in their kh, i was more or less completly ignored.

had in that time no phone calls, visits or any interest how i felt etc.

AudeSapere

If you *do* decide to meet with him/them, I would strongly encourage you to not attack doctrine or admit *ANY* activity that they would consider questionable as they will likely use that information against you and take judicial action. Don't engage them in any topic/subject.

Admit nothing but feeling discouraged by the complete lack of love shown withing the congregation.

If they say 'imperfect' people. Call them on that bs line. If nothing else, members of a loving organization group will reach out to a member when they take ill. Send a card, bring soup, offer a ride home. Something.

Discouragement and depression without elaborating on any specifics seem to be the only acceptable 'excuses' for not attending meetings. Well, not really acceptable, but mildly tolerated.

Admit *nothing* about beliefs or actions or friendships or affiliations or relationships, if you want to avoid the DF or DA label.

Please come back and tell us how the meeting or conversation goes.

-Aude.

18

What makes people ok with shunning?

by Butterflyleia85 in

it almost seems easy to some... or like a weird funny feeling like they are doing something wrong if they go against something inside of them and actually speak to marked (people they are told to shun) people.. (sorry to be bias in this but only exaggerate circumstances to make my point).

jehovah's witness for one are known to shun disfellowshipped members.. but also there is:.

popular kids at schools who shun unpopular kids at school.. rich people who ignore poor people.. some whites that are still racest shun black and vs.. some older proper/religious ones with high moral standards shunn or at least look down one the rebels.. ...seriously does it make life easier for them or something?.

AudeSapere

...Seriously does it make life easier for them or something?

I think in many cases, it does make life easier. JWs don't need to think for themselves, Infact they are told that independent thinking is divisive and idolatrous (in that it elevates oneself above the FDS and, in some cases, even Jehovah himself). For them and others who shun/avoid/'look down on' it helps them keep focused on their primary goal in life, whatever that may be. They have formed or adopted a belief system and life goal or life style that is dependent on that belief system.

What would make them change?

Many chose not to change even when faced with extreme evidence that change would be in their own best interest. Often it is an unexpected humbling life experience and subsequent kindness extended by a former 'shunnee' that allows them to see the error of their ways. Unconditional love conquers all - sometimes.

And most importantly when is it right to shun or is it really right at all?

Time and place maybe?? If I am on time crunch and too much to accomplish and I notice that there is someone who wants to talk and talk and talk to me and will not respect my words when I say 'no, not now', I think that is an acceptable reason to shun them in that moment (ie: walk down a different aisle at the grocery store or not take their phone call). Someone who constantly ignores clearly established boundaries can be denied entrance to my home but it is not loving to completely cut them off from my life. Someone who has been physically, spiritually, emotionally, or sexually abusive to me (or my loved ones) can pretty much count on being shunned by me at nearly every turn. But is that really 'shunning' or just strong boundaries?????

-Aude.

18

What makes people ok with shunning?

by Butterflyleia85 in

it almost seems easy to some... or like a weird funny feeling like they are doing something wrong if they go against something inside of them and actually speak to marked (people they are told to shun) people.. (sorry to be bias in this but only exaggerate circumstances to make my point).

jehovah's witness for one are known to shun disfellowshipped members.. but also there is:.

popular kids at schools who shun unpopular kids at school.. rich people who ignore poor people.. some whites that are still racest shun black and vs.. some older proper/religious ones with high moral standards shunn or at least look down one the rebels.. ...seriously does it make life easier for them or something?.

AudeSapere

Oops! I guess I didnt' even read the entire OP before responding! Oops!! My bad.

I see that the OP presented many other scenarios than within the JW context. My comment above was my thought from within the JW org.

In cases of popular vs unpopular, rich vs poor, white vs black, I think the reasons are less primal (than fear). Seems to me that in those cases, it is an attempt to elevate ones own status in the given community. Put others down to elevate oneself. Jealousy or feelings of inadequacy may cause others to avoid people who they perceive to be 'better' than themselves. Prejudice (over-generalization and scripting) drives many people to lump all people of one characteristic to be stereotypically identical.

Now I'll go read the rest of this thread and learn from the rest of you!

-Aude.

18

What makes people ok with shunning?

by Butterflyleia85 in

it almost seems easy to some... or like a weird funny feeling like they are doing something wrong if they go against something inside of them and actually speak to marked (people they are told to shun) people.. (sorry to be bias in this but only exaggerate circumstances to make my point).

jehovah's witness for one are known to shun disfellowshipped members.. but also there is:.

popular kids at schools who shun unpopular kids at school.. rich people who ignore poor people.. some whites that are still racest shun black and vs.. some older proper/religious ones with high moral standards shunn or at least look down one the rebels.. ...seriously does it make life easier for them or something?.

AudeSapere

Without reading everyone else's comments, I think it FEAR is what makes people OK with shunning. Fear of what others will think. Fear of displeasing [insert authority figure here (ie: Parents, Elders, Congregation, Org Leaders, Jesus, Jehovah, Angels, etc)]. Fear of reprecussions. Fear of having to take respnsibility for their own thoughts and actions. Fear that if they take that first step in talking to someone who has deliberately chosen a different philosophical path that they will be unable to maintain their own integrity.

Fear is a strong motivator in many.

-Aude Sapere (meaning: Dare to Know; Dare to Think for Yourself)

12

Reasons why I can't talk to you anymore

by sabastious in

1. you don't use the same mispronunciation of god's name that i do.

2. you "went out of god's love" after reading keep yourselves in god's love.

3. i marked on your forehead an invisible message to myself telling me to shun you, even though it's not official.

AudeSapere

That about covers it all.

I like that you placed this under 'Humor'. So sad that it's funny.

Stupid cult.

-Aude.

30

Do JWs Participate in Wars By Funding Them?

by cameo-d in

jw
friends

i think there are a lot of ways to get your hands bloody without actually joining the military or shooting a gun indiscriminately at foreigners in their own country.. can you think of ways that jws are participating in sponsoring wars without "going to war"?.

AudeSapere

WTS owned 50% of a company that made war weapons.

Did they really own HALF of the company?? Or was it that half of the gifted portfolio was RandCam stock?

There's a BIG difference.

Owning half of a company means you have definitive say in how the company operates and with whom they align themselves. I don't think the WTS had that kind of clout with RandCam.

There is much documented about the WTS RandCam affiliation, but I don't remember how many shares they had, just that it was sizeable net profit as an investor but not enough to 'direct' Rand corporate operations.

-Aude.