Posts by CalebInFloroda

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

DJS,

While I am still leaving, I did check back upon being let know what you said.

Funny how we started off locking horns and in the end you were the only one who got what I was saying. The evidence I presented favors the OP’s original post.

The reason why I really need to avoid this is that for the most part a lot of the people here never left the Watchtower.

These particular persons may have been disfellowshipped or disassociated themselves from it or distanced themselves in some way from its doctrines, but only the doctrines were left behind. And it is not just atheists, but there are some theists on this board this is directed to as well.

The close-minded arrogance that they have the truth because they did research and now they are enlightened, I’ve heard it all before…from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The fight that all other points of view are incorrect due to what now enlightens them—again, from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The posting of blurbs and quotes from others? Guess where from.

Perhaps (and I hope I am very wrong), but just perhaps some of these people who are acting this way were originally attracted to the Witnesses because they are a group that has not tolerance for ambiguity. These are people who like feeling they are right, in fact they have to believe they are and that others and their opposing views are unenlightened by comparison. It’s like a drug.

In the Watchtower they were coddled and given “gold stars” for their ambiguity intolerance and compartmentalization of all things and all people and all other belief systems. Not outside they are bitter because they no longer have a Governing Body to pat them on the back and remind them how special they are for choosing the right way.

So now, regardless if they are theists or atheists, they act just as mean, just as close-minded, just as unfair and belligerent as Jehovah’s Witnesses do. They are the same people. They just switched brands or flavors of Kool-Aid.

And when you hit too close to the mark they are suspicious. In fact they would rather think that people are lying to them and being underhanded, etc. because, like the Witnesses, it helps to demonize the other person. Then you feel good about rejected them and treating the other human being as if they aren’t another human being.

You feel you can get away without being respectful and mannerly.

You’re a good person, DJS. Your resolve to avoid these kind of debates, stay by that. And I trust your convictions are learned, well-researched, and dependable. In any other place I think I would enjoy getting to know you and being someone I would proudly call friend—and I wouldn’t want to change a thing about you.

But these other people…you folks are still under the spell of the Watchtower. You need to fight harder.

I am leaving not because of what you believe, but because of how you act.

You act just like the JWs.

Your beliefs, theist or atheist or inbetween are useless, and the Watchtower wins until you can stop ACTING like them.

If you can’t, then what you belie whatever benefits come from your beliefs. What good are all your arguments for what you believe in if your beliefs make you act like a judgmental, close-minded, judging and suspicious Jehovah’s Witnesses?

And yes, THIS is really the last, final word, so save your angry replies you have for me and rechannel that anger towards the JWs who poisoned your souls to the point of making you think you have a right to treat humans and their convictions in the horrible way you do.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

Vivian and others who are “doubting” what I claim to be or whatever based on my words.

I personally don’t believe that my views are right.

After my experience with the Jehovah’s Witnesses I know that I have the ability to choose the wrong, believe I am in the right while believing in the wrong, and that I can reason along lines to keep me blindly in this wrong course.

After leaving the Watchtower I no longer believe that I am a good judge or the person to ask on what is definitively true or not.

It is great that people have a place to argue and present their views here, but there is a lot of disrespect for those of other views. I don’t want to be that way, and I apologize if that may be what some see in my comments as that was not intended.

My resolve for myself: Do more than reject Witness doctrine. Reject Witness attitudes, their belief that one can really possess the ultimate truth and that I therefore have a right to bash or demonize the convictions of others.

I feel I don’t belong here, so I will move on. Peace to you all, whatever you believe or do not. Thank you for the brief time of letting me hear your views and letting me share my own.

Just remember: if any of us are ex-JWs then we are the last people on earth who should recommend a view or conviction as true or more correct than another and state that someone else’s view is incorrect. Our track record shows we aren’t very good at that since it wasn’t long ago we were saying that about our Watchtower beliefs. On the basis of the fact of our life’s record in that area, we don’t have the evidence to support that we can’t be fooled or won’t fool ourselves into believing we are right in what we believe even today. I remind myself that I am my worst enemy in this area each and everyday since I left the Kingdom Hall.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

I said that in reply to your own word, Oubliette:

But since you feel that way, you'll have no trouble understanding that I've examined "the data" (the Bible) and concluded it is an internally incoherent document filled with delusions and misperception....

Therefore I stated I have no problem understanding your position.

Sheesh, I hate this place. I feel like it's 1980-something and I've been dragged before the JW elders who are dissecting my words all over again. Forget I said anything.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

And Cofty and Oubiette, I don't know how to repeat it anymore clearly that I totally appreciate the stands you take. Why should I have any problem with them or either of you?

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

I'm a Jew, not a member of Judaism (and Jews don't refer to it as a "faith" like Christians refer to their religion). There are atheist Jews, secular Jews, Jews who are Buddhist, etc. I'm Sephardic, Mizrahi, Hebrew, Judean, whatever helps explain it, and I have even been formally invited to take advantage of the Law of Return so I am considered Jewish by the world community at large...but not all of us are religious.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

While I understand and even look forward to comments all make on threads, I understand that what most people do (and rightly so) is add and expect a comment from others that reflects their personal opinions and convictions. Mine are no different, but my conviction is that of the science of philology.

My personal convictions regarding the God-or-no-God issue doesn't "play well with others" since I'm Jewish (read my thread about the gay Jewish JW I wrote about and you will see what I mean). Thus I have little to offer to support most atheists and theists on this board. I'm in nobody's corner on that issue, but I will fight for your rights to believe whatever you wish--as long as it's not JW doctrine.

Thus what I wrote is philology data, not theology, not an opinion, and I offered no formula regarding what to make of what I wrote. As a philologist this was all I could add to what I viewed were very honest views written by Cofty. As a scientist I can only work with empirical data, and in Scriptural discussions I can only speak about the text at its most basic etymological level. That all the empirical data a linguist has to,work with in this situation.

So Obliette, it's up to the reader to decide what the data means. I just mentioned that the narrative details in this ancient text belie many of the claims made by many theists, and that if the text were allowed to speak more for itself instead of through a pre-focused lens, the the theological results would be different and we might even be having a totally different subject to debate.

Sorry if people were hoping to find support for their particular point of view, whether you are atheist or theist. I might play devil's advocate once in a while when I am here, but it's always to promote discussion of the arguments at play. In the end I don't give a poop what you believe or don't or what conclusions you come to with any data I present. That's a job for a Jehovah's Witness to tell you what to believe and judge you if you don't agree with them, and I am no longer one.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

Actually it may be worse than what any of you are thinking.

Critical research suggests that the Jews attributed their own savage warfare and acts to their gods which, under the Davidic dynasty, were condensed into the state religion of the cult of YHWH. When they were victorious, whatever the means, the Jews attributed this to God. When they lost, similar horrific acts performed by their enemies but now upon them were also attributed to YHWH but as punishment. Whatever the violence, who ever performed it, the Jews attributed it to God.

Theology changed after the Babylonian exile, recognizing human independence and responsibility for their own actions, but the traditions were hard to change (and most weren't). The result is that the construction of the Tanakh would see a mixed theology as redactors attempted to balance past tradition of attributing all things, good and evil, to a God who controls all and reconciling it with a more ambiguous theology of the all-controlling God who permits things such as the evils of war.

The unfortunate invention of literal interpretation or fundamentalism in both Christian and Jewish movements has led some modern theists to a form of Marcionism in which all events in Scripture must be explained as something far different from the patchwork of generations of writers and editors or rejected.

The fundamentalist Christian movements in particular have even colored descriptions of Jesus as if he did not possess qualities which do not reconcile with their simplistic theology. Jesus on more than one occasion forbids and forgoes serving Gentiles, once referring to a Gentile woman and her people as "dogs" in order to see if she will accept her "place" in society in exchange for Jesus saving her daughter. At other times Jesus acts as if he does not know what his actions may be implying, such as when he asks his disciples where the crowd will get its food (though he knows well he is going to feed them miraculously) or when he walks on water and pretends as if he plans to walk past the apostles who in a nearby boat are screaming in terror because they believe they are witnessing an apparition. And he constantly berates the Pharisees even though, because of his belief in the resurrection and the written works rejected by the Sadducees, is likely one of their number.

It appears as if there is a great fear on behalf of the religious to look at Scripture with open eyes and attempt to draw from it on its own merits instead of explaining away difficult to reconcile parts by the "wearing of rose-colored glasses." Scripture is not as bad as the bad interpretations which make it out to be, and these "peculiarities" of Scripture may mean something far more different than many realize.

69

"Your bad attitude is evident, because you don't bring a meeting bag to the meetings anymore!"

by stuckinarut2 in

yes friends.....this is the comment said to me by an elder!.

"your bad attitude is evident because you don't bring your meeting bag anymore!".

i calmly replied: "but everything i need is on the tablet now......".

CalebInFloroda

No, no, no. You should say: "Bookbags belong to Group 1 of the overlapping generations. Group 2, of which I am, are their contemporaries, some of whom live to see all things transferred to digital while the previous group of old farts die off in their own bad attitudes."

43

How a Gay Jewish Boy from New England Came to Be and Leave the JWs (and what he did next)

by CalebInFloroda in

born in cambridge, ma to a liberal couple that escaped the conservative south, my parents raised me better than to become a jehovahs witness.

funny thing was they got mixed up in it first.. while that is a story for another time, i myself had to go along as the third of five children in my family.

dads job transferred him to texas and my mom worked fulltime herself, but eventually we found ourselves drinking the kool-aid of ambiguity intolerance and full-fledge belief that the bible was literal fact and that salvation was found only by those who were smart enough to enter the confines of the watchtower.. its weird how many people claim they fear children raised by two gay parents will grow up to be gay.

CalebInFloroda

The Jews went from worshipping multiple deities to finally the one championed by the Davidic dynasty. Though the narrative in the Bible is often read as if my people were constantly faithful to the God of Abraham, this is not supported by archeology, history or even a close examination of Scripture.

The Davidic dynasty introduced and enforced a single state religion, the cult of YHWH with the construction of the Temple. Along with this redactions to Scripture ironed out the economy of this cult and the dynasty itself as part of this enforcement.

Etymologically speaking the terminology used in worship, mainly the plural word for "gods" became one of the Names for YHWH. Polytheism was thus the likely origins for the plural term, transferring the plural expression now to the Only God who they nationally believed ruled over all others.

Gentile Christians would read in this a foreshadowing of the Trinity, but the claim was not necessarily definitive at the expense of simple grammatical syntax. A similar misunderstanding has arisen due to the use of the masculine pronoun in reference to Elohim, allowing for a misogyny in Christianity that was blamed on the Jews for inventing, in essence claiming that Jews understood God to be primarily masculine. In reality the use of the masculine occurs due to the lack of neuter pronouns in ancient Hebrew as Jewish religion strictly forbids assigning gender to Elohim.

In closing, the plurality is just a holdover from the origins of the term but not representative of what later became defined in the Shema.

16

Did Jehovah's Witnesses dishonestly insert the word "Apostate" in their custom version of the Bible

by Watchtower-Free in

interesting article.

http://doctrinesoffaith.com/more-errors-in-jehovahs-witness-new-world-translation-bible/.

more intentional repeated errors in new world translation bible: a study on apostates.

CalebInFloroda

After being asked about this privately, I thought I should clarify that the first century use of the term "apostasy" refers to abandoning or rejecting practices, customs, and religious convictions. All these are referred to in Acts 21.21 where Paul is accused of promoting apostasy from Torah observance, the practice of circumcision (which is not technically from the Mosaic Law), and Jewish custom. Only the first, Torah observance, is connected with religion, whereas the others are cultural earmarks.

Today the word "apostasy" is limited to religion. No one is referred to as an "apostate" who abandons their custom or teaches others to abandon their cultural practices these days.