Posts by CalebInFloroda

21

Who were the Sadducees and the Pharisees?? Are there similarities between them and JW's??

by confuzzlediam in

last month, i had the privilege of traveling to jamaica with a study abroad group from my community college.

while there, we went to a place called my father's house in which severely disabled children lived when they had no one else to take care of them.

as part of their day, they hold worship in a small, outdoor meeting place.

CalebInFloroda

Thanks for your insights too, Megaboy.

There are some errors however in your conclusions and your presentation because the Diaspora aspect of Judaism is not touched upon, and some of the data is still based on Watchtower theology.

The idea that the Jews denied being slaves in Egypt is a Christian misinterpretation based on a reading from the Gospel of John. Jews declare weekly in Shabbat rituals and yearly Passover Seders that they were slaves in Egypt. The ancient prayers of the liturgy in Haggadahs and ancient siddur Shabbat observances are still uttered today with the words: "Remember that you were once slaves in Egypt." In a few hours I will be saying these very words, in fact as Shabbat is about to begin.

Also many Jews of the Diaspora never returned to Jerusalem after the Babylonian deportation. My ancestors from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin stayed in what is now known as Spain until the Alhambra decree of 1492 expelled all Jews due to the Spanish Inquisition. There were Jews in other parts of the world too, like Egypt where the Alexandrian Septuagint was created. DNA research over the past 7 years has verified the lineage of "hidden" Sephardic Jews, uncovered the reason for Ashkenazi traits, and verified the Cohen priestly line. Some of the claims are as TD pointed out, just anti-Semitism promoted by Christians and others as doctrine and "truth."

Many are unaware of these recent discoveries in history, archeology, and DNA research that have been inspired mostly by the recent Right of Return laws enacted by Spain and Portugal for descendents of expelled Jews of 1492. Hopefully people will do the research themselves based on these late findings and discover how wrong their view of the Pharisees and Jews in general really are.

21

Who were the Sadducees and the Pharisees?? Are there similarities between them and JW's??

by confuzzlediam in

last month, i had the privilege of traveling to jamaica with a study abroad group from my community college.

while there, we went to a place called my father's house in which severely disabled children lived when they had no one else to take care of them.

as part of their day, they hold worship in a small, outdoor meeting place.

CalebInFloroda

Thanks TD for the info.

I posted something along these lines in this thread yesterday but it got overlooked. I left the JWs and reverted to Judaism, and I can attest that people of so-called "Bible-only" movements like the JWs will never go to the source and just ask a Jew.

Of course who are we Jews to know anything about the Pharisees or our own culture or its sacred texts, right?

52

Try Other Religions

by Sofia Lose in

sometimes i get a strong curiosity to start dabbling into other religions, other faiths, you know?

really different ones such as islam, judaism, hinduism, etc.. has anyone here looked into something else?

has your spirituality been satisfied by any other than christianity?.

CalebInFloroda

Thanks, Faye. I've also learned that I must learn to grow a thicker skin, play well with others, and never opt out of any facet of life that is presented before me.

52

Try Other Religions

by Sofia Lose in

sometimes i get a strong curiosity to start dabbling into other religions, other faiths, you know?

really different ones such as islam, judaism, hinduism, etc.. has anyone here looked into something else?

has your spirituality been satisfied by any other than christianity?.

CalebInFloroda

I'm Jewish, ethnically and religiously.

I didn't know about my ethnic background when I was a kid and got baptized as a JW, so it was a culture shock to be sure to revert back into the community. And I didn't do it because I had some need for another religion or had a spiritual vacuum that needed to be filled. It had more to do with cultural identity.

Judaism is also not a religion about faith in that it isn't Christianity that judges people on what they "believe," what creed they claim allegance to, what doctrine they mentally and emotionally declare they acknowledge. Belief in God is not so much a mental acknowledgment of matter of faith. For Jews it's about how you respond to God. You can even be agnostic or secular (atheist) and still be considered a Jew. Religion for Jews is not about what doctrines you mentally acknowledge, it's about how you respond to the world and try to make it better not just for you but for everyone else.

I learned that the Christian and especially the JW view of Judaism was warped. As a JW I believed that Jews saw obedience to the Mosaic Law as a means to salvation. In reality Jews don't even have a doctrinal concept of salvation. Since Jews don't believe in original sin, they don't believe there is anything to be saved from. The Mosaic Law is seen as the opposite of slavery to the Egyptians, a way to exercise one's freedom to be their own individual. While most Jews don't observe many of the laws as they appear in Scripture (because the believe that changes in history often demand a reinterpretation of things), they do see its demands about living responsibly in the world as the most important.

As such I've learned to view atheists as upright and good as any religious person can be, as well as learn that religion or any type of ideology or creed is no guarantee that an adherent of such is not capable of evil. I view myself as no more "right" or having "the truth" as any other person, and that my first duty to another is to be their neighbor and not their judge seeking an opportunity to convert them to my views.

Scripture is studied critically, ritual is preserved as culture, and living life now (not just for some eternal life tomorrow) is seen as a duty to society and our responsibility to use our gifts in building it up. So it is very different from just believing some obscure doctrines. And it is not viewed as the "only way" to live. It wasn't always easy to become this after leaving the Watchtower world of black-and-white rules, either as you can see it is very different, even alien by comparison.

21

Who were the Sadducees and the Pharisees?? Are there similarities between them and JW's??

by confuzzlediam in

last month, i had the privilege of traveling to jamaica with a study abroad group from my community college.

while there, we went to a place called my father's house in which severely disabled children lived when they had no one else to take care of them.

as part of their day, they hold worship in a small, outdoor meeting place.

CalebInFloroda

Christians who rely on the New Testament alone in drawing conclusions about the Sadducees and Pharisees end up with a warped picture. The reason is that the New Testament texts were not intended by their writers to be historical accounts or biographies of Jesus. The words of Christian gospel were a combination of catechesis and polemics, designed to educate, proselytize, and propagandize all at once.

The Gospels were composed in their present form after the Roman war and the destruction of the Second Temple. This event left all the Jewish religious movements in a predicament (including the early Christians who saw themselves as Jews also), and this was not so much because the Temple itself had fallen.

Under Roman law, the only religion besides the state’s paganism that was allowed in the empire was the worship of the Jews. All other forms of worship were outlawed. You either worshiped the Roman gods or because you were a Jew (or favored their religion) worshiped the God of Abraham. Worshipping a foreign deity from a different kingdom independent of Rome’s jurisdiction was tantamount to treason.

The Romans never intended to destroy the Temple during the wars. As Judaism was an approved religion practiced by many Roman citizens, the Temple of Jerusalem was a landmark of Roman civilization. The Temple fell due to a mistake carried out by the soldiers under Titus, a mistake Rome tried to undo when Emperor Julian, in 363 as part of his plan to revive Roman religion (which included Judaism) in his attempt to squash out Christianity, ordered it rebuilt. Though the order never came to fruition, the fact demonstrates the favored (and most especially legal) position Jewish worship held in ancient Rome.

You see when the Temple fell, a competition in the Jewish community arose. Vying for validity in the eyes of the empire, Christians competed with the Pharisees over who were the true and rightful Jews. It was during this period that the written Gospels, especially Matthew’s, took shape. The negative description of the Pharisees in the Gospels was glossed over in rhetoric as Christianity was striving for what it believed was its rightful place as a legal religion. Much like Watchtower publications draws pictures of crazy-eyed clergymen appearing pompous and radical, the written Gospels did similar things with the competing Jewish groups in an attempt to say: We are the one true Jewish religion.

Without the Temple, the priestly sects of the Essenes and the Sadducees disappeared. Since the Pharisees centered on obedience to and study of Torah, they survived. You read nothing about the Essenes in Christian writ, only a little about the Sadducees, but a lot about the Pharisees because of this. The battle for the right to be recognized the authentic "Jews" led to the Pharisees as described in the New Testament to be written as polemic caricatures. Early Jewish descriptions of Christians were likewise colored with negative rhetoric, meaning that the truth about both groups (Jews and Christians) is actually somewhere in between.

Eventually Christianity was legalized in Rome, becoming the state religion. The persecuted became the persecutors because as soon as they realized they no longer needed to fight for the recognition of the worship as Jewish, they began a systematic oppression of the Jews that led to pogroms, the Spanish Inquisition and expelling of the Jews in 1492 from Spain, and eventually laid the groundwork for the ideology of Adolf Hitler’s “solution” regarding the Jews. Today Christians are making formal apologies for these mistakes, even rewriting their theology and admitting that these descriptions in the New Testament are colored with anti-Semitism. Groups like the Roman Catholic Church, some Lutherans, and even a few Evangelicals are coming to grips with the fact that they were virtually the inventors of anti-Semitism that laid the groundwork for the ideologies that inspired the Holocaust, though some more conservative members among them still disagree with and/or debate this.

It would be incorrect to claim that the JWs were therefore like the Pharisees and Sadducees of the first century as described in the Gospels. In fact, the Witnesses are closer to the Gospel writers who gave us some not-so-accurate caricatures that have led to 2000 years of hate crimes.

12

Why is a mass shooting in a church worse than other mass shootings?

by undercover in

jw
friends

i'll preface this by saying that i was horrified by the news of the shooting in charleston, a town that i visit quite frequently, and i know where the church is.

i don't mean to make light of the situation, but my question is serious, after having watched news pundits, politicians, neighbors, friends, express shock, horror and outrage over the events.. they, like me, were shocked by the school shootings, and the theater shootings, and other mass shootings.

but i sense a different shock, a different reaction, to this event.

CalebInFloroda

I have been following the news on this for hours but I've missed people saying this criminal act was worse than other mass shootings.

I don't think it's a competition. But if ever there was something to call "evil," I think this was it. I mean, many of us don't claim belief in religion on this site and may have quite a reason to be angry and even against religion.

But this young man did something both sacrilegious and vicious. He came to them, gained their trust by sitting with them during their Bible study and then shot them while telling then that they deserved to die because in that murderer's eyes their lives didn't matter. It was a disgusting act in a line of similar horrific crimes where people think their views are so superior that others deserve to be judged worthy of a bullet that will steal away their life.

Many here may have deep, deep hatred of religion and believe religious people are duped, and I know people may have very, very valid reasons for their stand, but this was something far different, more than merely negative, something terribly unjust and uncalled for. It was disgusting and evil, especially in the way it was carried out.

24

Children of murdered Charleston minister have "already forgiven" their Mother's killer.

by nicolaou in

i'm not judging these poor young people, if this is how they are coping with the trauma of losing their mum i can only wish them well.

i have to admit though that my jaw dropped when i first saw this interview, i couldn't square their reaction with what i understand as 'normal' human grief.. is this religiously motivated form of forgiveness a positive thing?

should i acknowledge this as something to be said in favour of religion?.

CalebInFloroda

I would,not be so quick to come to the conclusion that these people are just on "automatic" and not sincerely forgiving.

Unless we believe in some mambo-jumbo ourselves and claim we have ESP, we can't say we know what these people really feel.

Recall that this is a crime performed by someone who had a disrespect for these people's faith, enough to walk in, be welcomed by them, and sit through a study of the Bible with them before taking their lives, spilling their blood, and accusing them of rape and ruining the country. Innocent lives were taken. Parents and grandparents were slaughtered. This was an animal who did this, who had no respect for different views, conditions or race. Regardless if we claim a religion or not, can't we find it in our heart not to presume upon ourselves that are views are so enlightened that the convictions of others are no genuine. Or are we no better than this disgusting killer? I know all of you are.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

DJS,

While I am still leaving, I did check back upon being let know what you said.

Funny how we started off locking horns and in the end you were the only one who got what I was saying. The evidence I presented favors the OP’s original post.

The reason why I really need to avoid this is that for the most part a lot of the people here never left the Watchtower.

These particular persons may have been disfellowshipped or disassociated themselves from it or distanced themselves in some way from its doctrines, but only the doctrines were left behind. And it is not just atheists, but there are some theists on this board this is directed to as well.

The close-minded arrogance that they have the truth because they did research and now they are enlightened, I’ve heard it all before…from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The fight that all other points of view are incorrect due to what now enlightens them—again, from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The posting of blurbs and quotes from others? Guess where from.

Perhaps (and I hope I am very wrong), but just perhaps some of these people who are acting this way were originally attracted to the Witnesses because they are a group that has not tolerance for ambiguity. These are people who like feeling they are right, in fact they have to believe they are and that others and their opposing views are unenlightened by comparison. It’s like a drug.

In the Watchtower they were coddled and given “gold stars” for their ambiguity intolerance and compartmentalization of all things and all people and all other belief systems. Not outside they are bitter because they no longer have a Governing Body to pat them on the back and remind them how special they are for choosing the right way.

So now, regardless if they are theists or atheists, they act just as mean, just as close-minded, just as unfair and belligerent as Jehovah’s Witnesses do. They are the same people. They just switched brands or flavors of Kool-Aid.

And when you hit too close to the mark they are suspicious. In fact they would rather think that people are lying to them and being underhanded, etc. because, like the Witnesses, it helps to demonize the other person. Then you feel good about rejected them and treating the other human being as if they aren’t another human being.

You feel you can get away without being respectful and mannerly.

You’re a good person, DJS. Your resolve to avoid these kind of debates, stay by that. And I trust your convictions are learned, well-researched, and dependable. In any other place I think I would enjoy getting to know you and being someone I would proudly call friend—and I wouldn’t want to change a thing about you.

But these other people…you folks are still under the spell of the Watchtower. You need to fight harder.

I am leaving not because of what you believe, but because of how you act.

You act just like the JWs.

Your beliefs, theist or atheist or inbetween are useless, and the Watchtower wins until you can stop ACTING like them.

If you can’t, then what you belie whatever benefits come from your beliefs. What good are all your arguments for what you believe in if your beliefs make you act like a judgmental, close-minded, judging and suspicious Jehovah’s Witnesses?

And yes, THIS is really the last, final word, so save your angry replies you have for me and rechannel that anger towards the JWs who poisoned your souls to the point of making you think you have a right to treat humans and their convictions in the horrible way you do.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

Vivian and others who are “doubting” what I claim to be or whatever based on my words.

I personally don’t believe that my views are right.

After my experience with the Jehovah’s Witnesses I know that I have the ability to choose the wrong, believe I am in the right while believing in the wrong, and that I can reason along lines to keep me blindly in this wrong course.

After leaving the Watchtower I no longer believe that I am a good judge or the person to ask on what is definitively true or not.

It is great that people have a place to argue and present their views here, but there is a lot of disrespect for those of other views. I don’t want to be that way, and I apologize if that may be what some see in my comments as that was not intended.

My resolve for myself: Do more than reject Witness doctrine. Reject Witness attitudes, their belief that one can really possess the ultimate truth and that I therefore have a right to bash or demonize the convictions of others.

I feel I don’t belong here, so I will move on. Peace to you all, whatever you believe or do not. Thank you for the brief time of letting me hear your views and letting me share my own.

Just remember: if any of us are ex-JWs then we are the last people on earth who should recommend a view or conviction as true or more correct than another and state that someone else’s view is incorrect. Our track record shows we aren’t very good at that since it wasn’t long ago we were saying that about our Watchtower beliefs. On the basis of the fact of our life’s record in that area, we don’t have the evidence to support that we can’t be fooled or won’t fool ourselves into believing we are right in what we believe even today. I remind myself that I am my worst enemy in this area each and everyday since I left the Kingdom Hall.

94

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty in

it's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.

i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.

it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

CalebInFloroda

I said that in reply to your own word, Oubliette:

But since you feel that way, you'll have no trouble understanding that I've examined "the data" (the Bible) and concluded it is an internally incoherent document filled with delusions and misperception....

Therefore I stated I have no problem understanding your position.

Sheesh, I hate this place. I feel like it's 1980-something and I've been dragged before the JW elders who are dissecting my words all over again. Forget I said anything.