Posts by CalebInFloroda

20

Just received a visit from 2 Elders

by Driving Force in

the elders did not stay long and it wasn`t an official visit sanctioned by the boe/cobe because they were not from my (ex)congregation.

we talked a little about my situation and the fact that my wife does not talk to me and how non-scriptural her behavior is.. then they mentioned the rc and how it was the best convention for the last 20 years.

one thing they did mention was the fact that the borg was clearly preparing them for persecution.

CalebInFloroda

Preparing them for persecution? Surely a sign of the "nearness" of the end, right? Yeah they said the exact same thing back in 1979 and the 1980s. My favorite self-deception lie from back then along these lines was: "The increased activity is a sign the end is near." That was 35 or more years ago.

And every convention was always "the best one yet," that is what we always said back in those days too.

That generation of elders and Governing Body members who said such thing to me back then have died. They did not live to see the end, and the current Governing Body seems to have erased all the "insights from Jehovah" that the previous Governing Body received from heaven that "proved" we had the Truth.

The fact they are repeating the same things today shows they will end up as dead as the previous elders who taught me that as a child.

40

How many Atheist organizations or irreligious organizations have been accused of the covering up child abuse?

by jwleaks in

i don't know of any but would like some references if anyone does.

of course not all atheists or irreligious people need to belong to an organization.. studies on the demographics of atheism have concluded that self-identified atheists comprise anywhere from 2% to 8% of the world's population, whereas irreligious individuals represent a further 10% to 20%.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/demographics_of_atheism.

jw leaks .

CalebInFloroda

While a very good question, one has to remember that children generally do not join atheist organizations. Unlike religious movements, rarely are all families involved and then rarely do these groups consist of regular and repeated situations where children are left to fend for themselves for hours at a time.

Religious groups generally have activities and schools designed to teach children and get them involved. Religious practice is generally taught from infancy in some of these cases, and religious groups have clergy who may be entrusted with children for varying lengths of time without parental supervision. Unless a non-religious organization does the same things this would be a classic "apples and oranges" situation that would prove little.

Instead we need to find if any non-religious organizations have similar patterns and then compare those that do, and then we would have data worth something.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

Not a problem. You will find that among Jews there is a wide spectrum of beliefs, but critical scholarship does reign supreme upon many of us. Generally only Orthodox Jews hold such literal beliefs, but you will find even theirs differs from the type of Fundamentalist view of Bible-only Christians.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@Finkelstein

Thanks for that complement, but no. I'm a claimant to Reform Judaism.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@Crazyguy

Read my comments above your last post. I know very well where the stories come from.

Also: The story of Bel and the Dragon is not found in the most ancient texts of Daniel which are written in Aramaic and Hebrew. Those additions were added when the Septuagint was created many generations later by Jews living in Alexandria, Egypt. They only exist in Greek. The stories show great influence from the Hellenistic and heathen world around them and are not included in the Jewish Tanakh.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@Crazyguy

I don't remember saying that we invented the stories ourselves. In fact, if you had done your homework you would be aware that Jews know very well that many of our legends are based and even transferred from the mythology of the ancient peoples who lived around us.

For instance, the cosmogony of Genesis chapter 1 was popular among almost all the peoples of Mesopotamia. The Hebrew Noah has his story interpolated with that of Utnapishtim from the Gilgamesh Epic. The lengthy ages of the descendants from Shem to Abraham are connected to the type of pagan stories as found on the Weld Prism of world history which gives a list of ten kings who ruled before a world flood, with ages similar to those listed at Genesis 11.10-26. And I could go on and on and on...

I don't know what parade you thought you were raining on, but I have no illusions on the texts we Jews claim as sacred and the origins of the texts. Their being original or not does not change the fact that I'm Jewish or stop me from fighting for justice where it is lacking or working to make the world a better place for all.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@John Aquila

Jews have a totally different understanding of that text from Daniel. We don't even include Daniel as one of the books of the prophets, even though he was a prophet himself. The text in Daniel 9 reads differently in the Hebrew, and this makes the formula something different for us. We read it as discussing 70 years of Babylonian exile followed by 420 years of the Second Temple.

Not all Jews see prophecy about the Messiah as referring to a literal person. Many Jews see these prophecies as referring to a Messianic Age. Also the term "messiah" in Hebrew just means someone who has been chosen to rule, often being marked by literal anointing with oil as a sign of their installation. Because of that the references to "moshiach" in Daniel 9 have often been interpreted to be Cyrus, King Agrippa, and the High Priest at the Temple at the time of its fall is the third "moshiach." The term just means "anointed one" as in a ruler or priest.

It should be noted that the New Testament authors never quote this text or offer the general formula popular among Christians for Daniel chapter 9 in connection with an expected arrival of the Messiah. Being independent of the New Testament, the formula and its final conclusions are not directly based on any Christian Scripture.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@cofty

No. My status of a Jew is due to being a literal offspring of the Jewish people. There are many Jews who are secular (atheist), agnostic, some who make claim to Buddhism, etc.

At the same time you can't disassociate the concept of the G-d of Abraham and Sarah from the Jewish people. We have been hated and persecuted due to our worship, our culture that has grown from such a belief. The Shoah (Holocaust), the Spanish Inquisition, even current anti-Semitism is centered on this concept of the G-d of the Jews, regardless if individual Jews believe in this Deity or not. We all got sent to the concentration camps, we all get expelled from Spain, we all got shot at on the eve of the Sabbath by that terrorist not so many weeks ago. People don't ask Jews if we personally believe in G-d to hate us.

It's just like I tell some people: I believe Jesus of Nazareth was real. I believe he was a great teacher and the Gospels are based on some type of historical happenings (not that the stories within are always literal or precise). It matters not if he performed miracles or was resurrected after he died or ascended to heaven afterward. Should he come again as Christians expect him to in an amazing display of heavenly sights, I have no problem with telling him I don't believe he's the Messiah. None of those things are earmarks that the Jews have been waiting for in the Messiah or the Messianic Age. I have heard from some atheists who I know who have stated they would probably believe like Doubting Thomas if confronted with a miracle-wielding Jesus, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't because I'm a Jew, and my belief that Jesus is not the Messiah is not conditional.

I'm a Jew regardless of what G-d turns out to be, whether I have the right concept of G-d or not. And G-d is real regardless if G-d is the stuff of legends or a transcendent Being because Jews are real. I am real. And for what it's worth, that is what makes G-d real.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

In Jewish culture the repeated use of something makes it mundane. Holy things are to be handled differently, otherwise they are just as mundane as any other object.

Unlike the JWs who came to the wacky conclusion that the only name for G-d is the Tetragrammaton, we Jews have many names for the Creator. One of them is "God." But to use it often makes the name mundane. Pagans use the names of their gods over and over again, but not Jews. Jews do the opposite. We rarely utter our G-d's name.

When writing it we leave out a letter or the vowels or something like that so that it can differentiate it from frequent use. It also helps in case the material upon which the name gets written is destroyed, so the chance of deliberately putting the name at risk of being handled like refuse is limited. It's just culture.

The literal existence of G-d isn't necessary in Judaism as it is in Christianity. What is necessary is the goodness of G-d, and that can be brought about in the world by anyone, an atheist, an agnostic, a Gentile, and even a Jew. Another lesson for Jews from Job is to live life in the world as if G-d isn't going to help you and isn't there to help others. We might believe that G-d is, but that does no good if we aren't changing the world for the better. What good is belief and condemning others for disbelief when time can be better spent loving others for who they are instead of changing them and helping one another when there's need?

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

The book of Job is a poem that highlights the eternal search for answers. You are right: It's not a literal account like the JWs believe.

For instance, I noted that people were debating on how the Tanakh seemed to contradict itself by having Satan the Devil in heaven having a conversation with G-d. This is not what Jews read from the text at all, especially from the original Hebrew. (Many Jews don't believe there is a person such as "Satan the Devil." Christianity on the other hand is obsessed with this creature.)

In Job 1 and 2, G-d is discussing with the heavenly court the issue of Job's faithfulness. One member of the court plays the part of logic, asking opposing questions and setting up a test to help supply a valid answer to what has been raised. The term for this arguing person of logic in Hebrew is "ha satan," the "opposer." It isn't an evil spirit, however, just someone arguing a point to show that the Hebrew G-d is one who strives to come to conclusions fairly.

When the protagonist Job finds himself in the middle of his test, he demands answers, the main one being: Why? And he wants to hear from none other than the Creator.

But when G-d does finally speak to Job as requested, G-d offers no answers. G-d does, however, remind Job that G-d transcends our ability to fully comprehend our Creator. And then the account ends on a happy note.

It's a lesson in life we all must learn. Life is full of mysteries. The existence of G-d does not equate full comprehension of G-d by G-d's creation. G-d transcends, cannot be defined, and sometimes we have to search for and even make up our answers to questions we have.

Jews learn various lessons from this story (again not a literal tale). One is that Job doesn't do anything to make his life better. All he does is complain. That doesn't do him any good. G-d proves that Job's course has been one of folly, spending all his time wanting to know things that probably wouldn't matter in the end since Job is not a baby. He can do something to get out of his predicament, and obviously finally does because of the way the story ends.

Another lesson is that suffering of itself doesn't disprove G-d's existence. This was a lesson many of us have had to learn again and again during the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust. The suffering of almost 2000 years ended with out being restored to our homeland after World War II and our recapturing Jerusalem in 1967. Like Job the situation of the Jews has turned around and G-d has not forsaken his people but is fulfilling what G-d has promised.

Finally, Job is a book not of answers but of questions. Life is filled with them. Debates abound. Miracles are few. There is suffering, loss, and renewal. All of these things come to us many times and many ways. This is the stuff of life. Job teaches us that our journey through life will be marked with questions and all the other trials and rewards that came to Job. Sometimes we hear from G-d, and sometimes when we do we don't get the answers we were hoping for. The story is a legend, but its lessons are realistic. You can't have all the answers, but that is no reason to stop living.