Posts by CalebInFloroda

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

I will start a new thread called "Wish you knew? Ask a Jew." I will start it tonight and try to get through all your questions by tomorrow. Someone just brought donuts. That means I'm gonna be busy for the next couple of minutes until I can find the bottom of this here box.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@C0ntr013r

I think you are also getting the wrong idea from my replies as I don't think you are arguing with me or some of things you mention.

Since your questions seemed more aimed at Judaism or my personal views than the main subject of this thread, how about making a new thread of just sending me a PM to discuss these things at your pace and as fully as you wish? Either is fine with me.

But I would rather stick to one subject per thread, and for this thread it is about how JW theology is often more than lacking.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@Viviane

That's pretty true.

I also liked your comment on another thread where you said that you think G-d is a big di@k. That would explain a lot about me as a gay Jewish man as I have an affinity for both.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@oppostate

I don't believe Christianity is pagan. It's origins are Jewish.

And I've never quoted from the Jewish Encylopedia. In fact I can't remember ever using that as a resource.

But the rest you have written may be right. I will leave it to the others here and my Creator to decide if I am a hypocrite.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@James Mixon

The Torah is not intended as a history book. Thus its narrative is not restricted to what is read at first blush. Therefore whether the 40 years is literal or not is not as much a concern to me as are the experiences of my people during their sojourn in the Sinai wilderness.

The point is not the time they spent in the desert but how they changed themselves and the course of Jewish history. The lesson is that we can all change ourselves for the better even when things are not ideal around us. Living in a world that may be a "wasteland" is no excuse for not attempting to become better humans, for not treating others well, or for complaining.

Most Jews are more concerned with this than questions about the actual years. As a result some of us feel the 40 years were literal and some don't. Either is acceptable but not as important as the real lessons in my opinion.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@C0ntr013r

I appreciate the questions, really I do.

Even though you don’t notice it, there seems to be something in your questions that is suggestive of Christian logistics. It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions. I’m glad you’re asking, but to understand you will have to let go. It will actually help you understand the following answers.

Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure. Like the American in my joke above, outside of this board they probably don’t go around thinking about G-d. To understand and appreciate the atheist one has to understand this as a constant. And one has to accept that their identity doesn’t stem from their not being a god. Their identity merely consists of this facet, which may be a very unimportant one for them on their list of convictions.

You have to do the same with Jews and Judaism. You have to accept Jews not from your perspective, but from that of a Jew. Like the way we read from right to left and place a headcovering on our head when we pray instead of remove one’s headcovering, you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

Why not speak the Divine Name? What is stopping me from picking and choosing things from Scripture to follow or forsake? How do I unbind myself from the literal interpretation from Scripture? Why can a prophet like Jesus not be the Messiah? Why do things in Judaism seem so contradictory?

All you questions are answered with one simple answer: That’s just the way it is in Judaism.

Some of the reasons are use of logic. Some of the answers lie in how Judaism works. Others are bound to cultural constructs. And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

It takes a long time to un-think like a Westerner or a Gentile and turn your thinking to naturally flow like an Easterner and Jew. It won’t make sense overnight or with a simple answer because it requires an approach that let’s go of what you are familiar with, what is making you ask questions. Once you learn it you will have other questions, of course, but that’s the way things are.

This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers. It’s complex because life is complex. It’s ambiguous because, again, that’s what life can be and often. JWs have a religion that is made up because they can’t deal with life and it’s lack of easy answers, it’s complexities, it’s ambiguities. Jews and atheists and agnostics often find more in common and mutual respect because of our approach. There are even crossovers like Jewish Humanists, and like I mentioned many atheist Gentiles who enjoy sharing in Jewish ritual. If you are really looking for answers about Judaism itself you might want to check out some books or websites. I will gladly help point the way, but I am not writing this information or am here to make converts or change people. But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

We welcome everybody but we’re not in the business of proselytizing. We accept people as they are on their own terms and our religion teaches us that this is how we find the greatest gifts of G-d and from life. I want my friends to be Jewish and Christian and atheist and agnostic and straight and gay and Gentile and Muslim and etc., etc. And I want them to know I accept, love, and support them as they are.

12

There is no God.

by nicolaou in

it had been raining and i could smell the pine trees nearby.

god wasn't necessary.

the clouds cleared and the sunlight blazing from above paid out a bonus in the puddles at my feet.

CalebInFloroda

@nicolaou

Try not to look at your own response to the "God issue" as something being right or wrong. Instead give yourself some much needed acceptance for where you are at and permission to believe what you believe.

Freedom brings happiness. Happiness can be contagious. Bring to the world the best of you and, as up you are doing now, you will find how it can give the best it has to offer back.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@little_Socrates

For whatever its worth on Matthew: the latest scholarly theories I have heard go like this.

The earliest non-Scriptural references to this Gospel claim it was originally composed as a collection of sayings or teachings from Jesus (also known as a collection of "oracles") composed in Hebrew. This oracles-source might have been similar or actually be the mysterious "Q" source that is the foundation for Luke and the gospel of Matthew that we have today.

The Gospel of Matthew we have today seems to have been written by either a member or several members of the Matthean church in Antioch, taking the sayings from either Q or the oracle-source (if they are not one-in-the-same), revising much information from Mark. The "author" worked his interpolations into the text in Greek, in what appear to be five chapters in imitation of the five books of Moses. If a Jew, the author relies heavily on midrash to apply Hebrew texts as being fulfilled in Jesus. If a Gentile, this would explain why most of the applied Hebrew texts are "fulfilled" in odd ways (and some don't even appear in the Hebrew text, such as "And he shall be called a Nazarean.") The book became the first in the canon because the Catholic Church used it more in official liturgy in the first 4 centuries than any other gospel account, thus it was viewed as the most important.

If the oracle-source is Q, then you are correct that these sayings of Jesus are closer than the other Gospels. However there is also strong evidence to support that the predictions of the passion and the woes against the Pharisees in Matthew were not originally from Jesus per se, but interpretations based on certain sayings that only became reworked this way in the final editing of the book.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@Vivane

You are so right. Some of Scripture is clearly meant to be read as legend or parable or a religious reflection on a subject. People confuse finding truth with demanding that the Scriptures be full of inarguable fact, which it clearly is not. One can find truths in the fables of Aesop, and even Jesus Christ used parables (which are little fables) to teach "truths." So it is silly to claim the Bible is this book of historical facts when it is supposed to pass on teachings viewed as transcendent truths.

Who uses dry facts to get across their ideals, their convictions, and pass on their treasured legends?

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@C0ntr013r

To answer your questions:

We usually say various words for G-d, using a combination of names and titles. Since our prayers are in Hebrew and all branches learn them that way or have the Hebrew available as a transliteration, it is easy to find a word, title or substitute for this or that. But to some degree you are going to use one word or name more than others. A lot of Jews say “HaShem” when referring to G-d. “HaShem” is Hebrew for “The Name.” That’s pretty easy.

As for repetition in prayer, I have no more to offer. I only know that the repetition in Matthew is describe by Jesus as the type practiced by Gentiles, so regardless of our personal views it obviously meant something definitive that Jesus could point to. That is up to debate among Christians, for as I said I can only report what scholars say. I have no personal opinions about this, actually.

And for what it is worth, the Jewish texts are products of their time. People viewed conquering of their enemies as signs that they were blessed from Heaven. Ancient Jews attributed this to G-d, and wrongly so. Remember unlike Christians, Jews are not bound to accept the written text as literal or to avoid looking at it critically. We once used to only say that HaShem was the G-d of Abraham, but now we say the G-d of Abraham and Sarah. We recognize our people have been wrong and change things as time moves on. You can’t stick by ancient texts that offer guidance for times long gone. But you can try to find the good in anything and adopt what works for you.

And on Jesus Christ: I think that a few agnostic and atheists that come from a Christian background have a hard time separating the importance of Jesus to the G-d issue in Judaism (not to mention Christians themselves). Just like JWs don’t go around wondering what new publications and pronouncements the Mormons are making or what the latest encyclical of the Pope means, Jews don’t go around thinking about what they don’t believe about Jesus. It’s like that joke where one man from Canada sits across from an American at a truck stop restaurant, and the guy from Canada asks: “What do you Americans really think about us Canadians?” To which the American replies: “We don’t.”

So the fact that Jesus may have been a prophet doesn’t mean that I also have to think he is the Messiah. If he was a true prophet, I can live with that. But I also believe that how the Christians interpreted Jesus of Nazareth was incorrect. So the conclusions about Jesus are different. The other stuff, I don’t think about. I don’t even believe in a personal Messiah as being the fulfillment of Jewish expectations. Many Jews are so past that. So the Jesus-issue doesn't even come up for consideration normally.

And no, the Jewish Annotated New Testament, though available for Kindle as well as in hard copy form from Amazon, is not a light read. It is the entire NRSV New Testament text with footnotes, commentary, and study articles from Jewish sources regarding the material. It is a best seller and often hard to get in hard copy from, so you better get that Kindle app if you want to read it.

Lastly, no. I don’t blame Christians as a whole for the Holocaust. I stated “Christian nations.” The actual expression is “Christendom,” but because JWs have screwed that up as well too so that even ex-JWs use “Christendom” to mean “false Christian religions,” I was forced to use a term that I believe many ex-JWs are still not familiar with. “Christendom” actually refers to the secular bloc of nations in Europe and Asia that once had kings who exercised their rights as such by Church authority. The nations were also legally Christian or considered themselves by law as such. Germany was a member of Christendom until Christendom crumbled with the passing of the two world wars. Christendom no longer exists as these nations all claim to be secular and those that don’t, well the whole idea is over now. My blame was on these so-called members of Christendom, the nations that either did something or failed to do something. But I can’t call to blame people who weren’t alive then or Christians as a whole.