Posts by CalebInFloroda

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

CalebInFloroda

Despite my personal convictions as a Jew, I do want to stress and make very clear that I think it can be a very healthy thing to leave the religion of the Watchtower and freely embrace a new path.

As long as one does it with their eyes open and uses an intellectually honest approach, open to testing, that the path of embracing Christianity can be a valid and productive way of life.

While I have a ready supply of answers and replies for each and every challenge raised, I have to make clear that I am not one of Jehovah's Witnesses anymore, neither do I think or feel like them.

I don't care to attempt to prove myself right or others wrong about Jesus. And I don't believe it is right to constantly challenge another's convictions as long as there is evidence that they are freely exercising their conscience. As Jehovah's Witnesses we have had enough of being stifled from exerting freedom, and I am not about to do that here with those that choose to believe Jesus is the Messiah.

I am someone who has worked for years shoulder-to-shoulder with Christians to help make Bible translations clearer, more accurate and useful to the public. I probably know Christian theology better than most Chrisitans do. If there was a chance that Jesus was the Messiah hoped for by my people, that all Jews are wrong, that we don't know our culture, our theology and our sacred texts as well as Gentiles do, that we as Jews are blinded, I have learned not to act as ignorant or proud as I have when I was a Jehovah's Witness and I would have embraced that by now, some 20 years out of the Borg.

That being said, Jews don't have the same concept of Messiah that Christians have. The entire concept of Messiah is a Jewish one, anyway, just like kashrut, Mizvot, davening, and a lot of other Jewish words that most Christians don't know. I think we Jews have the right to use our own concepts and define them the way we see fit without being told we are mistaken or even challenged.

If you believe in Jesus, great I say. As long as you don't hold on to the darkness that kept us blind when we were JWs, super!

But an animal sacrifice was always humanely killed before it was sliced and diced and placed on an altar. If you did this before, sliced it or maimed it, and then killed it in a torturous fashion, the sacrifice would not be acceptable. Besides, as Ezekiel states the sins of our parents are not visited upon us. Becuase Jews believe these words, the sin of Adam and Eve has not affected us so there is no need for a sacrifice.

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

CalebInFloroda

@TheWonderofYou And Lieu

Read 1 Corinthians 8 and 10. Did you notice that the discussion is about "meat sacrificed to idols"? What is that all about?

Did you know that for a large part of the ancient world ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS including meat was processed via cult sacrifices...even in Judaism?

Most Gentiles get very lost and bored when it comes to reading Torah (and so do Jews). Unfortunately for non-Jews, the Torah gets read in a vacuum without exposure to our customs and history, without Halacha or understanding Mizvot from the standpoint of a people who are absorbed in our complex tradition, day in and day out.

Becuase of this most Gentile Chrisitans go about imagining that Jews were just slaughtering animals at the Temple for the blood, then tossing the carcasses and going on to the next animal to kill it and drain it for its blood.

Nope. That's how ancient cultures got their meat, leather, etc. Ancient Jews viewed animal life as a sacred gift from HaShem. Therefore in gratitude the blood would be offered back to HaShem on the altar, often to beg forgiveness for our errors and sins at the same time (convenience), and the meat divided among the priests (who could not raise their own livestock) and families in order to have food to eat. (If you notice offerings were foodstuffs: meat, wine, bread, etc.)

Because food came from G-d, eating was seen as a communion meal with Adonai. In some instances certain forms of thanksgiving required eating meals in view of the Temple, but most of the time this is how food got distributed (and cooked) in ancient societies, especially meat.

After the Second Temple fell, Jews in an attempt to find a way to interpret their customs in the "modern" Roman world and keep Judaism relevant decided that the time for offering sacrifices was past. The sacrifice/food model was outdated. Sins could still be forgiven by living up to the Law. Meat could be obtained in different ways. The altar of the Temple was soon replaced with our altar of our home tables.

Other cultures still got their meat this way in the first century, and Christians had to find a way to deal with this fact. They even saw Holy Communion as a meal like that once enjoyed at the Temple, but instead of eating actual animals they would teach that they were eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood, but in a sacramental manner. All this stems back to the fact that the sacrifices were not about just pouring blood out for forgiveness. That is what the Jews attributed to their "meat processing" of the Temple era.

This is why Jews don't sacrifice animals today. We can obtain forgiveness without slaughtering an animal. We can give thanks without pouring out the blood of a beast. We can go to the market for our meat. It's not about Jesus. It was about eating.

10

DOES "ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD" really mean "Do not murder?"

by TerryWalstrom in

20:28 - jesus' shed blood, thus related to murder.

with the words of augustine firmly in mind we now ask this important question:.

abstaining from blood(shed) preserves life!

CalebInFloroda

But I should add that the Apostolic college at the time did not see the Mosaic Law as lifted from Jewish Christians.

On the contrary, this resolution and the Pauline epistles that existed by this time must be read in light of Acts 21.17-26 which clearly states that neither the elders in Jerusalem nor Paul meant to suggest by such teachings that Jewish Christians were not free to pursue mizvot (obedience to/observance of the Mosaic Law).

10

DOES "ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD" really mean "Do not murder?"

by TerryWalstrom in

20:28 - jesus' shed blood, thus related to murder.

with the words of augustine firmly in mind we now ask this important question:.

abstaining from blood(shed) preserves life!

CalebInFloroda

Terry is 100% correct from the standpoint of with we teach in Judaism and the commentary on this verse as found in The Jewish Annotated New Testament (with NRSV text).

This is also reflected in the very interesting rendering of this verse found in the official Catholic version for the U.S., the New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE):

"...abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell."

The rendering of the Greek PORNEIA as "unlawful marriage" demonstrates that the Noahide prohibition on unions forbidden due to close degrees of sanguinity were understood here by the scholars who worked on the NABRE text (which consisted of Catholics and Protestants). The term PORNEIA refers to "illicit sexual union" with the word "illicit" capable of reflecting mores of a pagan or Jewish culture. In this instance the scholars who worked on this translation chose the term to reflect Jewish understandings, and thus the Noahide sanctions against incestuous unions colored this particular rendition.

These disinterested conclusions would support Terry's OP regarding the notion that abstaining from blood in this context refers not merely to its consumption but its being mishandled with disrespect, including its being spilt in murder. The apostolic letter of Acts 15 is not developing a new standard of limited Torah observance for Gentiles, but instead imposing only the Noahide Laws which Jews have seen binding upon the nations since antiquity.

40

Is the two-witness rule really unreasonable?

by stillin in

i'm picturing a situation in which a savvy 12 year old doesn't like the house rules that mom's new husband has put into place.

or something along that line.

i can certainly agree that protection of children is paramount, but who protects the real victim in those cases?

CalebInFloroda

The so-called "two witness" rule is a demonstration of how far lacking in Biblical scholarship and just plain logical thinking the JW religion is.

The rule (Deut. 19.15) uses an idiomatic expression requiring not two but "two witnesses or more." It is often repeated in the New Testament as "two or three witnesses."

This idiom is understood in the Jewish list of 613 Mizvot (Commandments) not as requiring at least two people to witness a crime but instructing Jews "not to decide a case on the evidence of a single witness."--Mizvot 227.

Two points of difference exist in how this is applied by Jews that shows how far off the target the JWs are in trying to apply this command from the Mosaic Law.

This commandment means that no judicial case should be concluded or finalized without thorough investigation. The idiom is neither asking for a literal number of witnesses nor is it speaking about establishing the validity of an accusation. It is about settling a case and requiring that justice be done in the sense that regardless of the charge and the opinion of the majority, no one should be judged adversely without due process and sufficient evidence to support any final decision.

In other words an accusation is not enough to decide a case. There must be evidence to support every conclusion made by judges.

Second, any reference to the application of this commandment in the New Testament is merely referring to the principles involved. The New Testament makes it very clear that Gentile Christians are NOT obligated to observe the Mosaic Law or meet any of its demands as a requisite for salvation.

The Greek text reveals an attempt to keep the Jewish idiom intact, often retaining the "two or three witnesses" expression. Again as this is an idiomatic expression, it is not literal. It is a reminder of not running to quick judgment without sufficient evidence. But one thing it is also not doing is discussing how to judge the validity of an accusation of a victim in a case, though sadly this is how it is often used by JW elders.

It's appearance in 1 Timothy 5.19 is evidence that its application is not meant to be taken at face value by Christians. It is stated in a context of applying lessons from two other commandments from the Mosaic Law, with verse 18 making reference to not muzzling an ox and verse 20 referencing the statement in Deuteronomy that carrying out judgment should be enough to strike fear in the hearts of criminals. All three verses, 18-20, are not enforcing the Mosaic Law upon Christians. Instead they are calling to mind lessons from the Law on carrying out justice. Therefore it is not right to impose and enforce a literal "two witness" rule.

58

Governing body deceiving members on purpose?

by wwjdnwt in

i was born into this religion.

i was a jw for well over 30 years.

i did much research before i had internet, i compared bibles and prayed deeply to help me to know if this was the truth.

CalebInFloroda

@Island Man

I gather you are talking to galaxie and not me since you are quoting the words he directed at me? I actually stated the same you did in reply to his comment earlier...

58

Governing body deceiving members on purpose?

by wwjdnwt in

i was born into this religion.

i was a jw for well over 30 years.

i did much research before i had internet, i compared bibles and prayed deeply to help me to know if this was the truth.

CalebInFloroda

@John Aquila

It's hard to say when and exactly how, but yes. They will come crashing down and hard. They will either self-destruct or push somebody too far that will push them back to their doom or they will assimilate to the point that they will become mainstream like the Worldwide Church of God.

This whole child sexual abuse problem is "pushing somebody too far," and it might be that the survivors will "push them back" in such a way that the Watchtower cannot recover. I don't know for sure, but if not them someone else will or one of the other two things will happen.

36

Going to a bad place when i die

by 060702015 in

i've thought and said too much to ever gain jehovahs forgiveness and love if i want to be a christian again.

i made a topic on my unforgivable sin and blaspemy of the holy spirit.. i feel saddness everyday having no relationship with god, no religion and fear of the afterlife.

even when i was kid i feared death and the end of the world.

CalebInFloroda

Part of what you are experiencing is a natural phenomenon. This might sound odd, but you are going through what is called an “identity crisis.”

You might think it is a spiritual crisis, but it isn’t…not exactly. I used to be one of JWs, and now I work in the field of Bible scholarship and translation. It’s been about a couple of decades since I was a part of the Watchtower religion, but I’ve been exactly where you are.

What we believe actually defines what and who we think we are. When this core belief system gets damaged or destroyed, the same thing happens to us. We are who we think we are, and a lot of that has to do with how we understand the world and the universe around us.

When we were Jehovah’s Witnesses we defined everything according to what we were taught. Upon leaving we might step into a vacuum unless we are ready to agree that everything, not just a little bit, but everything we learned from the JWs can’t be relied upon. Even things that might be accurate or true are affected in one way or another by the false doctrines and teachings of the JW religion.

The only way to get through this is to start from scratch.

That means you have to ignore anything and everything you learned from the Watchtower…at least learn not to trust any of it unless you can verify what you learned as a Witness from other sources and people (and person experience).

This means you can’t believe anything about the Bible, religion, other cultures, the world, or even the universe that was taught to you by the JW religion. You have to start all over again. You must take nothing for granted.

You might end up being an atheist, an agnostic, or even choosing a different religion. It sounds like you might feel the need for some spirituality—at least for now, at that’s okay. You can find hope and spiritual answers outside of the Watchtower. You can also learn to live without them and not feel that you are lacking hope or direction—yes, without a religion or spirituality.

But the reason you feel this way now is because you still believe that the only type of hope you can have is the religious one you were exposed to as a JW. That isn’t true. If you really want to understand religion in general, then open yourself to learning and even experiencing them and the people who belong to these other religious traditions. How do Hindus or Muslims deal with life? What kind of hope do Buddhists or Jews have? Is faith an earmark of all religious or spiritual movements?

You might also learn that religion might not hold the answers you seek. You might find that hope and faith are not as important to you in the end. But you can’t get even to this point unless you take the previous steps of letting go of the Watchtower and admitting you weren’t given a real hope or faith or religion as a Witness.

You didn’t really know anything about the Bible or God or Christianity because JWs don’t know any of those things. So you had no real hope to begin with. You were denied a hope, a faith, a religious experience as long as you remained a JW. If you really want one then you need to go find one as very different from the JWs as you possibly can.

Be patient. Don’t give up. You will find things out if you let them work themselves out. There’s an old Jewish adage that states: “Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you.”

Go ahead, pray, ask God for help. Whether it is God or something else you end up embracing in the end, you will get there. But don’t expect answers to come down from the sky to your lap. Search them out yourself. The end result might not be what you are expecting, but nothing will improve unless you make it improve yourself. (And we will do our best to help you along on your journey, wherever it may take you. You're going to be okay.)

58

Governing body deceiving members on purpose?

by wwjdnwt in

i was born into this religion.

i was a jw for well over 30 years.

i did much research before i had internet, i compared bibles and prayed deeply to help me to know if this was the truth.

CalebInFloroda

@galaxie

i think that is a wise assumption, but I can't say that I know for certain what these men on the GB actually think, plan or feel. I don't have that ability, nor can I offer more than assumptions of my own based on my particular limitations.

58

Governing body deceiving members on purpose?

by wwjdnwt in

i was born into this religion.

i was a jw for well over 30 years.

i did much research before i had internet, i compared bibles and prayed deeply to help me to know if this was the truth.

CalebInFloroda

But my comments are still hypothetical and an opinion. I agree that the truth might be a combination of things and also introduce the possibility that when it finally does come to end that the world will be left with more questions than answers about it all.