Posts by CalebInFloroda

27

More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

by CalebInFloroda in

what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

CalebInFloroda

I cannot recollect that the Governing Body or the Watchtower has ever correctly answered any of these questions. They were originally designed for a situation in which someone was bothering members of a Jewish-Catholic community center in New England.

The man, in his late 40s, claimed to be a mainstream Protestant, not interested in challenging members of the community center, but wishing to join since, as he claimed, he had been engaged in missionary work for his religion and had recently retired. Now he wished to enjoy time around fellow "believers in God."

Anyone, of course, can join such centers--you don't even have to be religious. They are centers for community gatherings and programs sponsored by the local synagogue and Catholic parish, usually, designed to give neighbors and their children something to do and somewhere to go, and have access to halls for meetings, plays, and wedding parties, etc.

But this fellow made it a point to hang around, want to get involved, and to mention his 'not being Catholic or Jewish' again and again. I had a feeling he was going to spring into some type of proselytizing tap dance, and suddenly smelled "Watchtower" all over him when he admitted he wasn't a formal missionary but did volunteer to work "spreading the good news as part of a worldwide Bible education work where the need was greater."

A dialogue ensued between 15 or so folks and him, and one day I was called to help settle what usually turned into heated and loud debates every 3 pm or so in the rec room. Claiming he knew how to read the Bible in its original tongues and had a vast background on all religions, I was asked if I could deduce if he was just being misunderstood or really was a JW using the center as an "easy way to count time," as I explained to them.

As part of my deduction process, I introduced this list of questions. I explained that we were using these as a part of our new weekday discussions on religion, and that I was assigned by the center as the new moderator of them all.

After we had made a circle of chairs and each had a copy of the list of questions, the man excused himself to go the bathroom. He never returned from the bathroom and we never had the discussion. In fact he never returned to the center again.

Much to my lack of surprise, our "friend" was spotted several months later offering the latest Watchtower and Awake! mags in the public ministry.

While many of us probably know the answers now after leaving the JWs behind or can easily Google them and get one, I knew from my own experience that I had learned either complete falsehoods regarding some of these things when I was in the Watchtower or that the subjects were never brought up by the JWs. Therefore I developed this list to see how "well-educated" any Witness was who claimed he was on scholar-level in regards to the Scriptures.

27

More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

by CalebInFloroda in

what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

CalebInFloroda

Doug,

No. 8 has only one possible answer.

I made sure I chose questions that had uncontroversial answers, had something in common in regards to basic Bible study, and could be used to show how greatly the Watchtower starved us.

Remember, the rules to this little test are to use nothing bit your memory of what knowledge you had while a JW. Whatever you answer now represents the type of Bible education the Watchtower provides, or at least that is what it should offer.

I will offer this tidbit: all the answers are not merely basic and uncontroversial, they create a formidable paradox for Watchtower theology.

27

More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

by CalebInFloroda in

what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

CalebInFloroda

What kind of Bible education did the Governing Body really give us? How much important information about it did the Watchtower really teach us? How much are we missing out on if we are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Take this test about Bible basics without looking up anything via the Internet or any other outside reference or help except for your own memory of what you’ve learned from the Organization and see how well you do. The answers will be provided after 24 hours have past from this original posting.

Ready? Begin.

The Bible was written in four languages. Name all four and the two books which were both written using two.
Explain how Mary Jones changed history regarding the Bible.
Place these New Testament canticles in order of their use during their day by Christians, and state which book, chapter, and verse in which they appear: The Magnificat, the Nunc Dimittis, the Benedictus.
Which book of the New Testament did Martin Luther want removed from the New Testament canon?
What is the Christian equivalent of parashot?
The Jewish canonization at the Council of Jamnia is historical or hypothetical? Explain.
Historically speaking, which books were more popular among early Christians? The Protoevangelium of James and the Shepherd of Hermas or 2 Peter and the Revelation to John?
The Apocrypha came to be widely removed from Christian Bibles, when? Shortly after the Reformation began or shortly before the incorporation of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?
Hebrews 1.10-12 quotes Psalm 102.26-28 according to the proto-Masoretic text. What name appears in verse 26 in the proto-Masoretic Hebrew script?
The earliest copies of the Septuagint did not have the Tetragrammaton in them. What appeared instead?

21

Silly Bible things you notice when your awake.

by Crazyguy in

i sure you guys can list others but here is a thought about the exodus story.

in chapter 1 the pharoah is concerned that the israelites are becoming to numerous.

and just as a side point we can assume pharaohs were not to dumb and even if they were the smart people of egypt studied in the temple 40 years and they studied all things not just religion.

CalebInFloroda

What I think I'm going to do is gather a list of all the things in the Hebrew Bible that we Jews recognized and dismissed as folklore and superstition centuries ago but that many people, especially JWs still promote as "truth" or some requisite to salvation.

It is actually funny and sometimes very sad when you compare what JWs claim is a religion where 'the light gets brighter' with the natural evolution of Judaism that, according to the Watchtower, struggles in the "darkness outside."

5

How to suck at your religion

by stuckinarut2 in

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion

CalebInFloroda

Of course, in all honesty, one has to ask also...

Do my convictions, religious or non-religious, cause me to do any of these same things?

Do I mock people of other convictions? If religious, what does this say about my religion? If atheist, what does this say about me as a person?

Do I validate my convictions by trying to convince others they are wrong? That mine are right? Do I give the impression that those who do not share my conclusions, my convictions, my views are illogical, lacking intelligence? One can be a Jew, a Christian, an Atheist, etc., and be guilty of these things too.

Do I praise critical thinking while at the same time not employing the scientific methods to my own views, convictions, beliefs? Have I learned everything possible about what I know believe or accept? Did I ensure my conclusions were not made out of emotion? Were they tested, tried, and validated by outside, disinterested parties before I embraced them?

Do I really understand the non-religious or religious views of the people around me? Or have I really stopped learning or am speaking before learning enough, always ready to criticize, tear down, spout what I believe is wisdom, religious or secular, when in reality I couldn't pass a college entry level test about the subject I am speaking of?

21

Silly Bible things you notice when your awake.

by Crazyguy in

i sure you guys can list others but here is a thought about the exodus story.

in chapter 1 the pharoah is concerned that the israelites are becoming to numerous.

and just as a side point we can assume pharaohs were not to dumb and even if they were the smart people of egypt studied in the temple 40 years and they studied all things not just religion.

CalebInFloroda

Thanks, stuckinarut2.

I'm not endorsing a universal acceptance of Scritpture as truth either here. What I am saying is that the Watchtower and their Governing Body is so hideous in their theology, that it stays with you in ways that can linger like a bad smell, even in ways you never realize.

Complaining about the Bible's non-historical narrative devices being "silly" is like arguing over the powers super hereos have in comic books. Who told you guys that this stuff was supposed to be anything but "silly"? Should we complain too that Aesop's fables contain a lot of talimg animals too? Guess what, they are of the same genre! Animals often talk in stories with morals.

The Watchtower is to blame, though, not anyone here. It obviously gets stuck with too many people that the Biblical narratives are supposed to be some type of written documentary when in fact that are little different from the parables Jesus used when teaching. If they were supposed to be history, I can understand this game. But the fact that this "game" is caused by lingering poison many of us still don't realize is still with us from the evil shadows of the Watchtower is even more disturbing.

21

A problem with the book of Daniel

by wozza in

left the wts some years ago, but just before i left we were studying the daniel book that they produced in the book study .. i noticed something wrong in the bible account of daniel and brought this up at the end of the study when the conductor asked if everyone understood that nights study,.

i think i may have started a topic here some years ago about this event ,it was a time when i started to question the wts in my heart and mind.the scriptures are lengthy so i will just shorten things by describing the stories in daniel and how one point really got me thinking about things and perhaps made the brothers wierd out about me sand distance themselves ,here it is..........dan ch 1-4. daniels ( who came to be called belteshazzar)in babylon along with shadrach,meshach & abednego ,daniel,after praying with these 3, interprets and states what nebuchadnezzars dream is( we all know this ,the image with the head of gold body of iron and copper etc) and they are rewarded by being positions of authority.

daniel made ruler of the province and chief prefect over babylons wise men ,the 3 were made overseers of the administation of the province ,all very important jobs ,.

CalebInFloroda

Murky is truly the word for it. And as I pointed out, Obadiah's one-verse reference is the only Scriptural evidence outside Jewish tradition that this happened after the First Temple fell.

My questions are why so far, even if Nebuchadnezzar had control of the area? 2 Kings 25.27-30 does mention that Jehoiachin was given "a throne higher than that of the other kings who were with him in Babylon," so there is some Scriptural reference to the Davidic dynasty being raised up and treated in a special way during the exile. But was this throne in Sepharad?

Whatever happened, it is equally curious that after the fall of the Second Temple, the Judeans and remnant of the House of David chose Sepharad to relocate. Why go so far away? Obviously they had a connection that did indeed predate the Roman invasion otherwise choosing such a long trek that took generations is equally hard to fathom.

So many questions, so little answers.

21

Silly Bible things you notice when your awake.

by Crazyguy in

i sure you guys can list others but here is a thought about the exodus story.

in chapter 1 the pharoah is concerned that the israelites are becoming to numerous.

and just as a side point we can assume pharaohs were not to dumb and even if they were the smart people of egypt studied in the temple 40 years and they studied all things not just religion.

CalebInFloroda

They are silly if you are holding on to the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses that these texts are historical and should be the basis for religious belief.

If, like Jews, you recognize these are parables, fables, legends, etc. that teach ancient mores, then you don't expect the devices to be literal.

And, by the way, Lot and his daughters are not supposed to be admired like the Watchtower teaches. The Jews despised their descendants, and the incestuous relationship between Lot and his daughters was told that way in Genesis partly to ridicule the origin of Israel's neighbors who were seen as the children of Lot.

In Jewish Scripture Lot is an idiot who kept going back, even after being saved once by his uncle, to a city that is violent toward outsiders. But thinking the opposite is what happens when you don't let go of JW theology.

21

Silly Bible things you notice when your awake.

by Crazyguy in

i sure you guys can list others but here is a thought about the exodus story.

in chapter 1 the pharoah is concerned that the israelites are becoming to numerous.

and just as a side point we can assume pharaohs were not to dumb and even if they were the smart people of egypt studied in the temple 40 years and they studied all things not just religion.

CalebInFloroda

It isn't too silly when one remember that there is no real division between Bereshit and Sh'mot in the Torah. It is continuing a saga.

Also it isn't immediate history either but opera. While based on the historical traditions, Exodus is narrative of the type found in a Haggadah, and in fact most are still to this day directly based on the pattern found within even though it is generally recognized in Judaism that the actual history is different.

The unnamed Pharoah is part of the drama started earlier, acting as the first of a series of adversaries to the fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. (Gn 12.2; 13.16; 15:5; 28:14, etc.) It isn't the complete story, either, as it is merely the written tradition arranged from many different traditions of what had be told in Haggadah fashion to direct the Seder along. Passover Seders predate the finished Exodus work, and this of course implies the traditions do as well.

What is missing from the Torah is the tradition that a Redeemer was destined to free the Israelites from bondage and replace the Pharoah as the leader of the inhabitants of Goshen. For this reason the Pharoah is disturbed about losing a large number of his subjects to this unheard of, yet-to-born Redeemer of the Israelites. Thus only the boys are instructed to be killed by Pharoah since it was believed that proper leadership could only be validly exercised by males.

It is unfortunate, but JWs have convinced people that you can read the Scriptures with full comprehension outside their culture. It never works. Remember that Scripture was written to supplement the already functioning Liturgy of Judaism, not act as the foundation for their beliefs. Exodus was written to be proclaimed at worship services, not as a writing upon which to base religious beliefs...unless you still believe what the Watchtower teaches.

21

A problem with the book of Daniel

by wozza in

left the wts some years ago, but just before i left we were studying the daniel book that they produced in the book study .. i noticed something wrong in the bible account of daniel and brought this up at the end of the study when the conductor asked if everyone understood that nights study,.

i think i may have started a topic here some years ago about this event ,it was a time when i started to question the wts in my heart and mind.the scriptures are lengthy so i will just shorten things by describing the stories in daniel and how one point really got me thinking about things and perhaps made the brothers wierd out about me sand distance themselves ,here it is..........dan ch 1-4. daniels ( who came to be called belteshazzar)in babylon along with shadrach,meshach & abednego ,daniel,after praying with these 3, interprets and states what nebuchadnezzars dream is( we all know this ,the image with the head of gold body of iron and copper etc) and they are rewarded by being positions of authority.

daniel made ruler of the province and chief prefect over babylons wise men ,the 3 were made overseers of the administation of the province ,all very important jobs ,.

CalebInFloroda

Kepler,

I'm a Sephardic Jew, a descendent of the Jews from Seferad (I will use the alternative spelling of "Sepharad" from this point forward so the connection is easier to make.). Recently Spain passed a law of Aliya ("Right of Return") to me, my family, and other Sephardic Jews who were unjustly sent away from our homes and land during the Spanish Inquisition by means of the Alhambra Decree of 1492.

Part of receiving one's citizenship back includes learning your history, and fortunately my family spent over 16 years tracing ours back, beginning in the 1990s. So a lot of this is still very fresh in my mind, though I have to admit I didn't know a lot of it before. I am going to simplify it here, and some of the details differ between sources, but here is the gist.

To begin with, when the First Temple fell, according to Jewish history and tradition, Nebuchadnezzar took the House of David and cared for it in a special place where the descendants of the monarchy could still retain some freedom as well as the dignity afforded royalty. According to tradition and Scripture, the Babylonians had control of the Iberian Peninsula, which is Sepharad or modern Spain and Portugal.

For instance, Obadiah, which was written not too long after the Babylonian invasion of 587 BCE, states near the end of its brief composition:

The exiles of this Israelite army will possess the Canaanite land as far as Zarephath, and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad will possess the cities of the Negeb. --Obadiah 20.

Exactly how Nebuchadnezzar transferred these Jews there is still not known, but even according to non-Biblical tradition that is what happened.

The return to Jerusalem from Spain after Babylon fell was a very slow process, especially for the Judeans (members of the Tribe of Judah, including the House of David). The history and tradition get very murky here. When we traced our family roots back we found a myriad of stories, nothing definitive and nothing so conflicting either.

What is known is that the Hasmoneans were never expected to rule, and more than the House of David had an aversion to their exercising kingship over Israel. The only thing we are sure of is that some of the Judeans were back in the Promised Land by this time and some were still in Sepharad. The ascension of the family of Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish throne did, however, stop any further resolve on behalf of the majority of the Judeans still in Spain. And, as we all know, it was from Hasmoneans that (after the introduction of Pompey onto the historical scene) the remnants of this dynasty got mixed with the blood of what eventually became the Herodian monarchy.

Did all Judeans return to the Iberian Peninsula during the time of the Hasmonean rule? No. Again, according to history, tradition (both Jewish and Christian), and even my family's own tradition and lineage, some members of my tribe remained in Judah until the time of the fall of the Second Temple in 70 CE.

When the Second Temple fell, the Jews of the Diaspora divided into the two groups we are most familiar with today, with some going north into Ashkenaz (modern Poland, Austria, and Germany), many of which of the priestly Cohen family, and the rest returning to Spain, mostly Judean, some from the tribe of Benjamin.

The track is hard to follow, but my particular ancestors arrived back in Spain via a trek that took generations, stopping in Rome and Greece along the way. By the time they arrived Islam had risen and taken control of Sepharad--yes, that is how long it took!

During the persecution of the Spanish Inquisition the Catholic authorities believed that the claims of the Jews they were persecuting, that they were of the royal House of David, was just a ploy to get the Christians to have sympathy for them (as this would mean the Christians were persecuting the very family of Jesus of Nazareth). To this day there are many Catholics who continue to claim that the Jews of Iberia were lying about their connection to the famous dynasty, but the history and traditions (though not entirely conclusive) do speak otherwise. And as the Catholic Church is now helping those of Sephardic ancestry to uncover their roots (for some reason the Catholic Church kept very accurate records of who they persecuted during the Spanish Inquisition, how, when, and why), it is becoming increasingly clear that there is a big "gulp" in the throats of many as the claims to Judean and Davidic ancestry are becoming harder and harder to dismiss.

What routes were taken? How did the reach these places? Where is all the evidence? Not all of it is there. We know where we were at during certain points of history, but how we got from point A to B is not always yielding.