CalebInFloroda

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Posts by CalebInFloroda

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  27

  Does anyone pray and if so to who?

  by duc007az in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it's been years since i've prayed and the last one i prayed to was the god known as jehovah.

  just wondering.

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  CalebInFloroda

  There is so a giant reptilian bird in charge of everything. His name is Shirley.
• 
  27

  For me the worst thing is not having a helper anymore

  by John Aquila in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  one of the things that gave me confidence in life was that i believed i had the almighty creator/god watching over me, directing me, guiding my every step, protecting me from harm, and answering my prayers.

  i now know that is not the case anymore.

  i finally stopped praying.

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  CalebInFloroda

  This might sound funny, but I have no idea what you folks are talking about.

  Who on earth were you worshipping? I've never had an emotional high or felt comforted by "knowing God was there."

  I never believed, ever, that G-d owed it to me to answer my prayers.

  In fact, my relationship with G-d, especially now, is often very silent, dark, bumpy, and occasionally a struggle.

  Sometimes there's what turns out to be the equivalent of an argument, with more question marks than acknowledging nods from both parties.

  It's not that I don't feel some sort of something there, but I would never say that whatever it is that it puts my mind at ease. It's highly complex, as intellectually honest as it is transcendent of any logic. It is a sweetness that produces nausea, an understanding that leaves me guessing, and a cold, lonely darkness that inspires with hope.

  It's like being in love with somebody. They are just as irritating and grinding on you as they are important to your heart.

  Now I am not saying you need to worship my Deity or take up my religion or even believe in G-d. No, not at all.

  But even when I was among Jehovah's Witnesses I never understood "God" like others seemed to. I still don't understand G-d on any level, and yet I have full grasp at the same time.

  He chases me down yet I am always after him. Worshipping him is full of happiness and sorrow making complete sense and none at all. It is all that makes up life, it's confusion, it's satisfaction, it's emptiness, it's fulfillment.

  Prayer is not even words sometimes. There is very little asking of G-d. There is a lot asked from G-d. I find myself here when he is not, and he finds he just missed me and will have to try again.

  Being with G-d is good and bad, ugly and beautiful, just like life is, all of it. But if I ever said I didn't need G-d, I would not miss comfort or someone I felt was there obliged to help or grant my wishes like a genie. I don't know this in my experiences.

  And I am not trying to be condescending. I really cannot relate. If that was all there was to G-d, I'd reject G-d too.
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  27

  Does anyone pray and if so to who?

  by duc007az in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it's been years since i've prayed and the last one i prayed to was the god known as jehovah.

  just wondering.

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  CalebInFloroda

  Fremindfade,

  We Jews serve lots of wine when we pray.

  Come on over. Don't have to pray or be Jewish, but you do have to drink.

  I have booze and booze. Which do you prefer?
• 
  27

  Does anyone pray and if so to who?

  by duc007az in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it's been years since i've prayed and the last one i prayed to was the god known as jehovah.

  just wondering.

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  CalebInFloroda

  I'm a descendent of Abraham, of the tribe of Judah, of Sephardic Jewish ancestry. I pray to the G-d of my ancestors.

  But I promise you, I ain't praying to the Watchtower's "Jehovah," I can tell you that. None of my people ever have.
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  45

  What language was Jesus most at home with?

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  our former loving brothers and sisters have been instructed to think that, jesus likely spoke a form of hebrew and a form of aramaic.

  (aid to bible understanding-103-105).

  of course, there is no way to demonstrate the truth of that assertion or any other assertion about the languages that the common people of the land spoke.

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  CalebInFloroda

  Actually it can be easily demonstrated what language was spoken in first century Israel.

  Being Jewish and having had ancestors living in Jerusalem at the time, I know from our history and records what language we spoke.

  There was also something very famous known as Targumim. Becuase most my ancestors could not speak or read Biblical Hebrew they had to use this paraphrase of Scripture.

  There were many records, Jewish and otherwise that describe the language they spoke. That language of history and the Targums? Aramaic.

  If we did not speak Aramic, how did the Targumim and these records come about? Who forged Jewish diaspora history to say otherwise? If Jesus spoke Greek, which Greek did he speak? Koine? Attic? How about Jewish Greek? There is such a thing...but it wasn't spoken in the first century.

  If Jesus spoke Greek, why did Papias say the first Gospel was composed in Hebrew characters (Aramaic was written using the Hebrew alphabet)? Why go from Greek to Aramaic to Greek again?

  Besides, Greek was not spoken by Romans. Latin was. Greek was reserved only for writing.

  Maybe I'm wrong, but it is what all other etymologists and philologists teach when you ask them.
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  27

  More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

  by CalebInFloroda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

  how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

  how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

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  CalebInFloroda

  I just learned moments ago that I won’t be able to add the answers later tonight as planned, so I am posting them now. I have tried to provide the most up-to-date information and stay as nominal as possible (as there is always room for a little disagreement here and there in some of the details).

  The answers are not meant to reflect my personal convictions, however, so keep that in mind if you find something you strongly disagree with (but feel free to post the alternative or additional information).

  And here are the answers:

  1. The Bible was written in four languages. Name all four and the two books which were both written using two.

  The books of the Bible are written in ancient forms of Hebrew and Aramaic, Koine Greek, and Jewish (Septuagint) Greek.

  There are two books in the canon that are composed in two of the four languages: Daniel, which is written in Hebrew with Aramaic sections transliterated via Hebrew characters, and Luke, which is written in Koine Greek but stylistically lapses into Jewish Septuagint Greek from Luke 1.5 through the end of Luke chapter 2. This is the Infancy Narrative, and the author of Luke does this to make this part of his gospel read as if it were directly taken from or part of the Old Testament.

  2. Explain how Mary Jones changed history regarding the Bible.

  Ever see that illustration by the Jehovah’s Witnesses of first-century Christians preaching door-to-door with scrolls of Scripture to read to others? Or ever heard the preaching of the Good News throughout history described by the Witnesses in similar fashion? It’s an awesome scene to imagine, but it is only the product of imagination.

  While some did own their own individual copy of Scripture, mass numbers owning a personal copy of the Bible is a modern phenomenon that owes its existence to a Welsh girl by the name of Mary Jones (1784-1864). Though brought up in a Methodist household, Mary, like most Christians up until her day, did not own a copy of the Bible. Unless you were rich or had access to your church on a regular basis, you could not read the Bible. There were just not enough copies to go around because they were so expensive to produce (not to mention the fact that illiteracy was the rule of thumb for many folk).

  But Mary loved the Scriptures each time she heard them preached or taught, and this little girl wanted nothing more than her own Bible. At age 8, Mary became a Christian, and she took advantage of all the education on reading made available to her. She began saving her pennies until she could afford a Bible of her very own (which, again, was costly due to the difficulty involved in producing them). When Mary had enough money, she walked barefoot, 25 miles to the nearest town that sold them, only to end up dismayed and literally in tears when she learned that the Bible she wanted was no longer available.

  While a Welsh Bible was eventually found for Mary, her story attracted the attention of Christian men in her area and inspired them to create the first non-profit organization in the world dedicated to the production and distribution of Bibles at cost or less in order that all persons of any class could own one. The organization, the first of its kind, was called the Religious Tract Society (founded in 1799), beginning the era where many followed suit to ensure that people anywhere in the world could own a copy of the Holy Scriptures.

  While the first actual tract society was created in 1782, the Deutsche Christentumsgesellschaft, it was developed to create literature to “combat” atheism. The London Religious Tract Society was the first to realize that there was a need to publish Bibles in more than just English or Latin (or other major languages) and that affordable (or even free) editions were necessary. This would lead to the development of other Bible societies around the world, with the Religious Tract Society eventually changing its name to the British and Foreign Bible Society.

  3. Place these New Testament canticles in order of their use during thei day by Christians, and state which book, chapter, and verse in which they appear: The Magnificat, the Nunc Dimittis, the Benedictus.

  Inherited from the Jewish style of sanctifying the hours of the day by means of prayer, Christians began to do the same, borrowing words from texts which (often due to their use as prayer) would eventually make up the Christian canon.

  Of the most important used to mark the day (outside of the Pater Noster) are those used to mark Morning, Evening, and Night prayers. Those said upon rising (Morning Prayer) end with a recitation of the Benedictus from Luke 1.68-80, with sundown (Evening Prayer) concluding with the Magnificat from Luke 1.46-55, and prayers before retiring adding the Nunc Dimittis found at Luke 2.29-32.

  Catholics, Anglicans, and others often recite these canticles as part of their official daily ritual of formal prayer and have been doing so for probably as long as there have been Christians. The very preservation of these canticles for inclusion in the New Testament may even, in some cases, be due to this ancient daily practice.

  4. Which book of the New Testament did Martin Luther want removed from the New Testament canon?

  The Letter of James was believed by Luther to contradict the Letter to the Romans and Luther’s own theology of “salvation by grace alone.” Therefore Luther pushed to have it removed from the Lutheran canon, but to no avail.

  His softening of his views would eventually lay the ground work for bringing an end to the doctrinal schism on salvation between the Catholic and Lutheran Churches with adoption by both groups of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 1999.

  5. What is the Christian equivalent of parashot?

  The Christian equivalent of Jewish parashot is a pericope. They are formal divisions of Scripture set for reading on specific liturgical dates for religious services.

  In Christianity, pericopes are usually preserved together as a Lectionary and often have incipits added to ensure proper setting for each pericope.

  6. The Jewish canonization at the Council of Jamnia is historical or hypothetical? Explain.

  The Council of Jamnia was a hypothetical example first introduced by Jewish historian Heinrich Graetz in 1871. It appears to have been popularized as fact mainly by its use as anti-Catholic propaganda by some non-Catholic Christian groups wishing to discredit the use of the Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha by “papists.” Whatever the reason for its elevation to “historical” status, the theory has been largely discredited since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

  7. Historically speaking, which books were more popular among early Christians? The Protoevangelium of James and the Shepherd of Hermas or 2 Peter and the Revelation to John?

  The Proteoevangelium of James and the Shepherd of Hermas appear to have enjoyed wide circulation among Christians before the canonization process took place. Once the canon was closed in the 4th century, 2 Peter and Revelation were among the least recognized and most unheard of among all the books selected.

  8. The Apocrypha came to be widely removed from Christian Bibles, when? Shortly after the Reformation began or shortly before the incorporation of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

  It was just shortly before the incorporation of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society that the Apocrypha came to be widely removed from Christian Bibles.

  Prior to this, Protestants followed the procedure developed by reformer Myles Coverdale (1488-1569) of keeping the “Catholic books” as part of Bibles, but consolidating them into a marked off section between the Old and New Testaments.

  However around 1825 a controversy over allowing this section to be printed and distributed arose among members of the British and Foreign Bible Society. Members who disagreed and left developed their own societies and thus it became more and more popular to produce Bibles originally with an Apocrypha section (such as the King James Version) without it.

  This has since reversed itself after the discovery of the Qumran scrolls with new "ecumenical" versions, such as the NRSV, containing all books from all recognized canons.

  9. Hebrews 1.10-12 quotes Psalm 102.26-28 according to the proto-Masoretic text. What name appears in verse 26 in the proto-Masoretic Hebrew script?

  The name that appears in Psalm 102.26, in the proto-Masoretic text, is the Name of God, YHWH. It was dropped by the Masoretic tradition in the 7th century CE, maybe even as a response to its use by Christians in the Letter to the Hebrews since, as quoted, it directly identifies Jesus of Nazareth with the Creator.

  This is how the text reads in Greek at Hebrew 1.10: “At the beginning, O LORD, you established the earth…” When the New World Translation was first published, one of the so-called “J” manuscripts was noted as carrying on the proto-Masoretic tradition by keeping the Tetragrammaton in this spot, though it never appeared in any edition of the NWT’s main text.

  10. The earliest copies of the Septuagint did not have the Tetragrammaton in them. What appeared instead?

  The earliest had merely a space, and some after that a dot. It appears that the Tetragrammaton was experimented for a brief time after that, but the substitution of the Greek word KYRIOS became the norm. Remember, the Septuagint was translated by Jews for Jews, so one has to take into consideration that viewing the name as holy, the Jews were looking for a way to appropriately transfer and handle it in another language to keep from dishonoring it. Neither leaving a space, a dot, or using the Tetragrammaton was considered acceptable, so they finally decided up on the Greek substitute instead.
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  27

  More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

  by CalebInFloroda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

  how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

  how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

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  CalebInFloroda

  I cannot recollect that the Governing Body or the Watchtower has ever correctly answered any of these questions. They were originally designed for a situation in which someone was bothering members of a Jewish-Catholic community center in New England.

  The man, in his late 40s, claimed to be a mainstream Protestant, not interested in challenging members of the community center, but wishing to join since, as he claimed, he had been engaged in missionary work for his religion and had recently retired. Now he wished to enjoy time around fellow "believers in God."

  Anyone, of course, can join such centers--you don't even have to be religious. They are centers for community gatherings and programs sponsored by the local synagogue and Catholic parish, usually, designed to give neighbors and their children something to do and somewhere to go, and have access to halls for meetings, plays, and wedding parties, etc.

  But this fellow made it a point to hang around, want to get involved, and to mention his 'not being Catholic or Jewish' again and again. I had a feeling he was going to spring into some type of proselytizing tap dance, and suddenly smelled "Watchtower" all over him when he admitted he wasn't a formal missionary but did volunteer to work "spreading the good news as part of a worldwide Bible education work where the need was greater."

  A dialogue ensued between 15 or so folks and him, and one day I was called to help settle what usually turned into heated and loud debates every 3 pm or so in the rec room. Claiming he knew how to read the Bible in its original tongues and had a vast background on all religions, I was asked if I could deduce if he was just being misunderstood or really was a JW using the center as an "easy way to count time," as I explained to them.

  As part of my deduction process, I introduced this list of questions. I explained that we were using these as a part of our new weekday discussions on religion, and that I was assigned by the center as the new moderator of them all.

  After we had made a circle of chairs and each had a copy of the list of questions, the man excused himself to go the bathroom. He never returned from the bathroom and we never had the discussion. In fact he never returned to the center again.

  Much to my lack of surprise, our "friend" was spotted several months later offering the latest Watchtower and Awake! mags in the public ministry.

  While many of us probably know the answers now after leaving the JWs behind or can easily Google them and get one, I knew from my own experience that I had learned either complete falsehoods regarding some of these things when I was in the Watchtower or that the subjects were never brought up by the JWs. Therefore I developed this list to see how "well-educated" any Witness was who claimed he was on scholar-level in regards to the Scriptures.
  
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  27

  More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

  by CalebInFloroda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

  how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

  how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

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  CalebInFloroda

  Doug,

  No. 8 has only one possible answer.

  I made sure I chose questions that had uncontroversial answers, had something in common in regards to basic Bible study, and could be used to show how greatly the Watchtower starved us.

  Remember, the rules to this little test are to use nothing bit your memory of what knowledge you had while a JW. Whatever you answer now represents the type of Bible education the Watchtower provides, or at least that is what it should offer.

  I will offer this tidbit: all the answers are not merely basic and uncontroversial, they create a formidable paradox for Watchtower theology.
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  27

  More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

  by CalebInFloroda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

  how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

  how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

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  CalebInFloroda

  What kind of Bible education did the Governing Body really give us? How much important information about it did the Watchtower really teach us? How much are we missing out on if we are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  Take this test about Bible basics without looking up anything via the Internet or any other outside reference or help except for your own memory of what you’ve learned from the Organization and see how well you do. The answers will be provided after 24 hours have past from this original posting.

  Ready? Begin.

  1. The Bible was written in four languages. Name all four and the two books which were both written using two.

  2. Explain how Mary Jones changed history regarding the Bible.

  3. Place these New Testament canticles in order of their use during their day by Christians, and state which book, chapter, and verse in which they appear: The Magnificat, the Nunc Dimittis, the Benedictus.

  4. Which book of the New Testament did Martin Luther want removed from the New Testament canon?

  5. What is the Christian equivalent of parashot?

  6. The Jewish canonization at the Council of Jamnia is historical or hypothetical? Explain.

  7. Historically speaking, which books were more popular among early Christians? The Protoevangelium of James and the Shepherd of Hermas or 2 Peter and the Revelation to John?

  8. The Apocrypha came to be widely removed from Christian Bibles, when? Shortly after the Reformation began or shortly before the incorporation of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

  9. Hebrews 1.10-12 quotes Psalm 102.26-28 according to the proto-Masoretic text. What name appears in verse 26 in the proto-Masoretic Hebrew script?

  10. The earliest copies of the Septuagint did not have the Tetragrammaton in them. What appeared instead?
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  21

  Silly Bible things you notice when your awake.

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i sure you guys can list others but here is a thought about the exodus story.

  in chapter 1 the pharoah is concerned that the israelites are becoming to numerous.

  and just as a side point we can assume pharaohs were not to dumb and even if they were the smart people of egypt studied in the temple 40 years and they studied all things not just religion.

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  CalebInFloroda

  What I think I'm going to do is gather a list of all the things in the Hebrew Bible that we Jews recognized and dismissed as folklore and superstition centuries ago but that many people, especially JWs still promote as "truth" or some requisite to salvation.

  It is actually funny and sometimes very sad when you compare what JWs claim is a religion where 'the light gets brighter' with the natural evolution of Judaism that, according to the Watchtower, struggles in the "darkness outside."