Posts by CalebInFloroda

33

Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.

the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.

berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.

CalebInFloroda

I am URJ (Reform Judaism), and as such I am one of those Jews who don't formally subscribe to the concept of a personal Messiah. We hold that prophecies of the Messiah in Tanakh are personifications describing the promised Messianic Age. In line with this it is the Messianic Age that we are still waiting to come, but I have no arguments with Jews who believe otherwise.

As to the comments you posted regarding the JW view of the Witnesses regarding the Jews, I was not arguing with the talented Rabbi was wrong (who I happen to admire very much as a matter of fact). I was instead offering a counter argument that could validate why some individuals might not agree with Rabbi Berenbaum. It is Jewish custom to open every view to critical analysis, and that is what I was doing.

However, it has been the Roman Catholic Church and not Jehovah's Witnesses who have radically changed their views on the Jews. With Vatican II the Catholic Church denounced proselytizing of Jews, Replacement Theology (Supersessionism), and teaches that the covenant relationship of the Jews with G-d are not only still valid but irrevocable. The Pontifical Biblical Commission in a recent study on the Jewish people in the Christian Bible has stated that the current division of Church and synogogue is not only unscriptural in the eyes of the Holy See but should have never happened in the first place. Recent comments from Pope Francis have reiterated that proselytism of the Jews and any type of anti-Semitism is forbidden among Catholics. And Hebrew Catholics are allowed to retain Jewish customs, including the wearing of kippah and observance of Jewish holidays.

While as a Jew I am not endorsing Catholicism, it must be admitted that these changes are a far cry from the current views of the JW and foreign to the direction the Governing Body seems to be currently taking.

Not that I think the JWs are incapable of such change. In fact it is because I know that they are that I do not share as positive a view of the Watchtower as some might.

33

Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.

the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.

berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.

CalebInFloroda

I generally agree with much Rabbi Barenbaum said regarding the Bible Students who bravely endured the Shoah alongside the Jews instead of compromising their integrity to join the Nazi regime.

However (and I speak as a Jew who lost family in the Holocaust), just as I do not hold the German people of today as responsible or even connected to the Nazis and their atrocities of the past, I don't view the Bible Students/JWs of 1930s Germany as representative of the JWs today.

For instance, the JWs of that period did not believe in all the doctrines now advanced by today's Governing Body. The theology of today's JW would be heresy in the past and vice versa. Some of their teachings remain intact, but the differences are so vast that the connection to the past may not be fair. Ex Witnesses who have left in the 1980s often remark how the actual JW religion dissolved around the end of the 20th century and that the present religion by the same name is something entirely different.

Also the JWs who entered the concentration camps did not do so because of their hatred of Nazism. They were politically neutral out of allegiance to Christ and his Kingdom. They would have rejected any government on this basis.

It just so happens that the JWs who survived the camps not only believed that the Nazi's were under the Devil's control but that the government that preceded the Third Reich was as well as the government that replaced it. While it is not a reason to throw someone into a concentration camp, I will admit, their ending up there was due to the fact that they view all non-Witnesses as blinded minions of Satan. They weren't being heroic against the Nazis as much as they were there because they judged them as servants of Satan just like they do everybody else and every government. They were not particularly standing against Nazism itself.

Finally the Witnesses currently teach anti-Semitic doctrines, and many of these have remained in effect since before the 1930s. They advance a supersessionist ideology, demanding that Jewish converts assimilate to Western culture, and as they have told me directly believe that G-d has rejected the Jews as a people because they rejected and killed Jesus.

The individuals who endured the concentration camps may have indeed been heroic and honorable, but just a one cannot judge all Jews due to the action of a few, neither can the current membership of JWs be automatically compared with the Bible Students that Hitler persecuted.

20

Just received a visit from 2 Elders

by Driving Force in

the elders did not stay long and it wasn`t an official visit sanctioned by the boe/cobe because they were not from my (ex)congregation.

we talked a little about my situation and the fact that my wife does not talk to me and how non-scriptural her behavior is.. then they mentioned the rc and how it was the best convention for the last 20 years.

one thing they did mention was the fact that the borg was clearly preparing them for persecution.

CalebInFloroda

Preparing them for persecution? Surely a sign of the "nearness" of the end, right? Yeah they said the exact same thing back in 1979 and the 1980s. My favorite self-deception lie from back then along these lines was: "The increased activity is a sign the end is near." That was 35 or more years ago.

And every convention was always "the best one yet," that is what we always said back in those days too.

That generation of elders and Governing Body members who said such thing to me back then have died. They did not live to see the end, and the current Governing Body seems to have erased all the "insights from Jehovah" that the previous Governing Body received from heaven that "proved" we had the Truth.

The fact they are repeating the same things today shows they will end up as dead as the previous elders who taught me that as a child.

40

How many Atheist organizations or irreligious organizations have been accused of the covering up child abuse?

by jwleaks in

i don't know of any but would like some references if anyone does.

of course not all atheists or irreligious people need to belong to an organization.. studies on the demographics of atheism have concluded that self-identified atheists comprise anywhere from 2% to 8% of the world's population, whereas irreligious individuals represent a further 10% to 20%.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/demographics_of_atheism.

jw leaks .

CalebInFloroda

While a very good question, one has to remember that children generally do not join atheist organizations. Unlike religious movements, rarely are all families involved and then rarely do these groups consist of regular and repeated situations where children are left to fend for themselves for hours at a time.

Religious groups generally have activities and schools designed to teach children and get them involved. Religious practice is generally taught from infancy in some of these cases, and religious groups have clergy who may be entrusted with children for varying lengths of time without parental supervision. Unless a non-religious organization does the same things this would be a classic "apples and oranges" situation that would prove little.

Instead we need to find if any non-religious organizations have similar patterns and then compare those that do, and then we would have data worth something.

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Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

Not a problem. You will find that among Jews there is a wide spectrum of beliefs, but critical scholarship does reign supreme upon many of us. Generally only Orthodox Jews hold such literal beliefs, but you will find even theirs differs from the type of Fundamentalist view of Bible-only Christians.

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Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@Finkelstein

Thanks for that complement, but no. I'm a claimant to Reform Judaism.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@Crazyguy

Read my comments above your last post. I know very well where the stories come from.

Also: The story of Bel and the Dragon is not found in the most ancient texts of Daniel which are written in Aramaic and Hebrew. Those additions were added when the Septuagint was created many generations later by Jews living in Alexandria, Egypt. They only exist in Greek. The stories show great influence from the Hellenistic and heathen world around them and are not included in the Jewish Tanakh.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@Crazyguy

I don't remember saying that we invented the stories ourselves. In fact, if you had done your homework you would be aware that Jews know very well that many of our legends are based and even transferred from the mythology of the ancient peoples who lived around us.

For instance, the cosmogony of Genesis chapter 1 was popular among almost all the peoples of Mesopotamia. The Hebrew Noah has his story interpolated with that of Utnapishtim from the Gilgamesh Epic. The lengthy ages of the descendants from Shem to Abraham are connected to the type of pagan stories as found on the Weld Prism of world history which gives a list of ten kings who ruled before a world flood, with ages similar to those listed at Genesis 11.10-26. And I could go on and on and on...

I don't know what parade you thought you were raining on, but I have no illusions on the texts we Jews claim as sacred and the origins of the texts. Their being original or not does not change the fact that I'm Jewish or stop me from fighting for justice where it is lacking or working to make the world a better place for all.

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Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@John Aquila

Jews have a totally different understanding of that text from Daniel. We don't even include Daniel as one of the books of the prophets, even though he was a prophet himself. The text in Daniel 9 reads differently in the Hebrew, and this makes the formula something different for us. We read it as discussing 70 years of Babylonian exile followed by 420 years of the Second Temple.

Not all Jews see prophecy about the Messiah as referring to a literal person. Many Jews see these prophecies as referring to a Messianic Age. Also the term "messiah" in Hebrew just means someone who has been chosen to rule, often being marked by literal anointing with oil as a sign of their installation. Because of that the references to "moshiach" in Daniel 9 have often been interpreted to be Cyrus, King Agrippa, and the High Priest at the Temple at the time of its fall is the third "moshiach." The term just means "anointed one" as in a ruler or priest.

It should be noted that the New Testament authors never quote this text or offer the general formula popular among Christians for Daniel chapter 9 in connection with an expected arrival of the Messiah. Being independent of the New Testament, the formula and its final conclusions are not directly based on any Christian Scripture.

32

Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila in

i been researching information on why the the conquest of canaan could not be a real historical account.

i found this on barts blog:.

when considering the historicity of the narratives of joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness.

CalebInFloroda

@cofty

No. My status of a Jew is due to being a literal offspring of the Jewish people. There are many Jews who are secular (atheist), agnostic, some who make claim to Buddhism, etc.

At the same time you can't disassociate the concept of the G-d of Abraham and Sarah from the Jewish people. We have been hated and persecuted due to our worship, our culture that has grown from such a belief. The Shoah (Holocaust), the Spanish Inquisition, even current anti-Semitism is centered on this concept of the G-d of the Jews, regardless if individual Jews believe in this Deity or not. We all got sent to the concentration camps, we all get expelled from Spain, we all got shot at on the eve of the Sabbath by that terrorist not so many weeks ago. People don't ask Jews if we personally believe in G-d to hate us.

It's just like I tell some people: I believe Jesus of Nazareth was real. I believe he was a great teacher and the Gospels are based on some type of historical happenings (not that the stories within are always literal or precise). It matters not if he performed miracles or was resurrected after he died or ascended to heaven afterward. Should he come again as Christians expect him to in an amazing display of heavenly sights, I have no problem with telling him I don't believe he's the Messiah. None of those things are earmarks that the Jews have been waiting for in the Messiah or the Messianic Age. I have heard from some atheists who I know who have stated they would probably believe like Doubting Thomas if confronted with a miracle-wielding Jesus, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't because I'm a Jew, and my belief that Jesus is not the Messiah is not conditional.

I'm a Jew regardless of what G-d turns out to be, whether I have the right concept of G-d or not. And G-d is real regardless if G-d is the stuff of legends or a transcendent Being because Jews are real. I am real. And for what it's worth, that is what makes G-d real.