Posts by CalebInFloroda

13

Why is shunning unloveing

by poopie in

jw
friends

please give reasons for all the lurkers.

and why does shunning show the same attitude as the pharisees?

CalebInFloroda

First of all, the idea that shunning is like the Pharisees is wrong. Shunning is a Gentile practice, not a Jewish one.

Second practically all Christian denominations and scholars (except for Fundamentalists and JWs) have denounced the New Testament descriptions and narratives about the Pharisees as polemical and not based in fact. You may want to consult The Jewish Annotated New Testament and the NABRE New Testament (official Catholic translation) and read the footnote apparatus of each volume for examples on how both history and internal New Testament evidence belies the authenticity of these caricatures.

Shunning is indeed evil, and while some individual Jews have taken it upon themselves to avoid certain family members who may have converted to Christianity for example, this is definitely not the attitude of the majority, especially today.

The shunning idea was invented by the apostle Paul and ascribed to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and are contrary to Torah. Jews believe that Torah forbids the rejection of other people, and in fact that Torah demands that we love and treat all people fairly, welcoming one another and working together to make the world a better place.

All modern Jews are descendents of the Pharisees, and the majority of branches of Judaism condemn shunning practices. We are inclusive at our places of worship, even welcoming non-Jews to be part of our worship communities. We accept and fully embrace the LGBT community, and Reform Jews even have rabbi's that perform same-sex marriages.

So before you start pointing at any type of Jew, past or present, and claiming they were or are like JWs, you might want to check your facts. It is not only evil to shun. It is also evil to ascribe to our neighbor things that are not true.

18

Whose God are you worshipping??

by Crazyguy in

in the early writings of the bible its mentioned that the israelites worshiped false gods, gods of the stars and other celestial bodies.

ezekiel even bloviates against this in his writings and king josiah is said to have abolish these practices.

jeremiah mentions that god would even destroy the city were sun worship was being practiced a place called bethshemesh in egypt.

CalebInFloroda

You might want to look at some of these verses from a more critical text than the KJV or at least slow down before jumping to these conclusions which actually have a basis in Christian Fundamentalist groups that have an anti-Semitic agenda than actual critical analysis and archeological history.

First off the Jews recognize far more about their idolatrous beginnings than you realize we do. You may want to watch the PBS documentary series "The Story of the Jews" by British historian Simon Shama. If these are your current beliefs about Jews that you posted above, you will be shocked to learn what history and archeology really shows...and it isn't the story Christians learn in Sunday school or the type of story Cecil B. deMille whitewashed for Hollywood.

You may want to abandon your KJV Bibles or any Old Testament translated by Gentiles and take up a few Hebrew classes at your local synagogue. Conservative and Reform Jews are open to everyone, and some Orthodox communities might be more welcoming than you think to educate people in the own language. Hebrew isn't hard. Why rely on scholars when you can read the text for yourselves?

If you don't want to learn a new language, then why not try the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) translation by the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) and thus get as accurate a translation in English as possible? The NJPS is in modern English, and I highly recommend the CJPS for those who have never experienced how Jews culturally read Scripture (CJPS is The Contemporary Torah: A Gender-Sensitive Adaptation of the NJPS).

Jews acknowledge that the Scriptures offer a more polished mythology of our own religion's beginning than what really happened. But these details above are very off. Why not learn the real ones instead? It would still show we were quite polytheistic up until the time of the David dynasty (and a little bit afterwards too). I am just letting you know that the details above are not the facts, even though the general idea is not too far from the historical truth.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

CalebInFloroda

My question is why people are so obsessed with this question, like it matters?

We can all alleviate someone's suffering or at least try. It's better use of one's time than debating whether there is a loving deity or not that can or won't or can't alleviate suffering.

The whole idea that one's convictions are the important thing is rubbish. Who cares if you believe in a god or you don't believe in a god? What good does either conviction do if you spend time arguing about how superior or more correct your views are, time that could have been better spent elsewhere?

One side says: Oh, it's important to debate because we have to convince others to save souls from hell.

The other side says: Oh, it's important to debate because we have to convince others how destructive such a false conviction is.

The only convictions that need to be changed are the ones that tell you that beliefs are more important than actions and that we need to alter other people's minds instead of doing something to make the world a better place.

The biggest lie is not god mythology, it's that it is impossible for us to put an end to suffering or that it takes a god to do it--that's the really big lie!

Suffering exists and doesn't get alleviated because people have the ability to do something to stop it and don't. They would rather argue over issues to ignore the fact that they aren't doing anything. Suffering neither proves or disproves divinities. Suffering only tells us how little we humans really do for one another. And it ain't much.

Suffering is definitely proof that there is no G-d, but not that G-d doesn't exist somewhere out there. Suffering is proof that G-d doesn't exist in the most important of places. Suffering is proof that G-d doesn't exist in you and me. And he doesn't exist in us not because we don't believe in G-d but because we don't care to believe in one another enough to find ways to alleviate each other's suffering.

3

Would the WTBTS ever do this?

by ABibleStudent in

i know that jws like to boast about how virtuous jws and the wtbts are and believe that the wtbts abhors child sex abuse.. if a co is equivalent to a catholic archbishop, would the wtbts ever df a co and support him being prosecuted for child sexual abuse like the catholic church is doing to wesolowski, who paid to have sex with children ( http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33491956 )?

i wonder if this news will appear in a watchtower or awake.

i doubt it for obvious reasons.. peace be with you and everyone, who you love,.

CalebInFloroda

There's a significant difference.

The Vatican is now persecuting its own clergy under a new judicial arrangement. It can do this because it is a sovereign state. The Holy See is a government, and clergy who were involved in the sexual child abuse scandal should be shaking.

This is not the ignorant papacy of John Paul II or the too theologically-tangled-to-be-bothered reign of Benedict XVI. Francis is determined to jail these criminals and punish them with the same authority and institution that wielded out whippings during the days of the Inquisition.

While I don't know how successful Pope Francis will be or if his opposers in the church will let him go as far as I've read he has planned (and you might not be surprised that some would rather just continue to sweep things under the rug even if it means removing Francis from power), clergy that escape of even serve time under secular authorities may in addition have to face a Vatican tribunal and jail as well...and the Vatican can grab you where ever you may be!

Jehovah's Witnesses, despite believing they are representatives of God's Kingdom, are not a sovereign state. They cannot persecute or dish out punishment (and in some countries they are being investigated for holding judicial committees, as in some countries there can only be one judicial body for all). And they don't even have the guts to do anything because unlike Pope Francis who has already called out his own church and clergy with very tough language about this, JWs can't admit they did wrong.

Doing so for Witnesses is theological suicide because attempting to do so under their formula of hermeneutics, their paradigm would become a "house of cards," so to speak. Unlike Catholicism there is no autonomy or room for independent action. If one is wrong, they all are as the Watchtower equates truth with unity, and sees unity as being nothing less than uniformity.

I'm not holding my breath with the Catholic Church, however. It should have done something long ago. They just recently apologized for persecuting and killing members of my family before expelling them from their homes in the Iberian peninsula with the Alhambra Decree. Just the other day Austrian Catholics made a formal apology for its actions and inactions that led some of my relatives from Budapest and other Sephardic communities to death in Auschwitz. These are moves in the right direction, but they don't right many wrongs I am still living with due to these injustices that occurred before I was born.

But I would like to be surprised, and am actually pleased with the direction Francis is taking. But would the Witnesses do the same? Are you kidding? Did you see how they were patting themselves on their back for publishing articles about child abuse in Awake! issues no one has read in a generation as if this was proof they had no such filth in their ranks? You can't correct something you don't believe is broken.

35

If you were told today you would die next week, would you be happy and fine with that?

by EndofMysteries in

jw
friends

i don't know how so many who seem to be certain this life is it after being jw's seem to happily accept it and be fine with it.

i am living and trying to live as if this is it.

i want there to be a future life/afterlife, something, but i see how fast life comes and goes and even if i'm living it to the fullest, there is no peace for me with the thought this may be it.

CalebInFloroda

Despite having a belief in the Jewish Olam Ha-Ba, or "Life in the World to Come," I try to live not in preparation for tomorrow or to make sure I end up there. I live to make the most of now, to ensure that I am doing the most with the present, that my life is not being wasted...and that I am contributing to society to build it up in some way.

You always and only have now. Don't screw it up.

33

Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.

the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.

berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.

CalebInFloroda

@prologos

Now I understand what you mean. You are talking about people who were Jewish or of Jewish descent who became Jehovah’s Witnesses. I get it. I was thinking something darker from the word “influence,” such as the common accusation from many Fundamentalists that the Watchtower is secretly still a Zionist organization.

While I am glad you found the people mannerly, the description of “calm” makes it sound like they got the “Jew” kicked out of them.

We can be mannerly, yes. Polite? Or course! But “calm”? That’s not an earmark Jews are known for.

Jewish culture teaches us to argue or debate every point, like Abraham did when G-d told him of the plan to bring judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah. We believe in unity, yes, but uniformity? Nope. We see our relationship with G-d as an agreed upon struggle of the minds, like Jacob wrestling with the angel. In this type of relationship with the Creator it can't be said that our dealings with others are not reflective of this exegesis.

I see this “calm” as proof of JW indoctrination removing the cultural “bite” out of Jewishness, to be honest, just another thing that makes the Watchtower destructive to cultures and their unique way of life and thinking.

You ever see us pray at the Western Wall? It’s loud, busy, jumpy, and anything but calm—and that’s our holiest site in our religion, too! Not so calm like a visit to a Kingdom Hall. As a Jew it is nice to hear that others find us mannerly in some instances, but what you describe is just not us. It’s Watchtower whitewash.

33

Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.

the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.

berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.

CalebInFloroda

@prologos

Post script: if your question about "mild influence" is about children born to JWs of Jewish ancestry, always remember the axiom: Jewish is as Jewish does. Since JWs require assimilation, Jews are not allowed to pass on their unique culture and ritual to their children. Believing in Supersessionism, JWs teach that these have been replaced by Christianity whereas Torah teaches that ritual, custom, tradition, and holy day celebrations are all vital to keeping one's cultural identity intact.

33

Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.

the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.

berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.

CalebInFloroda

@prolgos

I am a Reform Jew, and as such I belong to a group that still hopes for that day when the world is totally healed in the Messianic Age. What you are describing is healing and redeeming leading us in that direction, or so believe members of the URJ.

As for "mild influence" of Jews born into the JW organization, I know nothing of it. The religion of the Witnesses has all the earmarks of Protestant and heathen worship, where divine names are uttered like the heathens and all give up their culture to assimilate to be like the Western Gentile world. The exegetical approach is Adventist and Fundamentalist in nature and totally void of the knowledge and use of Hebrew, which by the way is never taught to the JWs like it is to Jews so that we can read and pray in the language of the Scriptures.

If you doubt and still suspect some mild or even secret influence, just go to a synagogue and get to know the people and the Jewish culture. It is very different.

33

Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.

the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.

berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.

CalebInFloroda

@Fisherman

I'm afraid you have the actions of some Orthodox Jews mixed up with the views of Jews in general towards Jehovah's Witnesses.

Reform Jews, for instance, believe in freedom of religion. We fight for the legalization of the free practice of conscience in every country we live. We do not believe in persecuting, injuring, or otherwise discouraging JWs from worshipping according to their conscience. The actions of a few Jews toward JWs cannot be applied to Jews as a whole except for those who kept themselves ignorant of how all the Jewish people feel.

Take into consideration, however, that your words stating that God was behind the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE is the same type of polemic that inspired the pogroms, the Spanish Inquisition, and eventually the foundational ideologies that inspired Hitler as expressed in Mien Kampf and his "solution" for the Jews. Like the Confederate flag that was lowered in South Carolina today, all but anti-Semitic groups hold on to such a belief. Even the Witnesses recently revised their teachings regarding this.

Many of my ancestors of the tribe of Judah were not in Jerusalem in 70 CE. (Obadiah 20) And other Jews of the Diaspora were likewise survivors untouched by the violence of those days. If G-d truly was visiting judgment on the Jews that day, why not all the Jews all over the world? Why just in Jerusalem? Because it was an attack not from G-d but from the Roman armies. If it was from G-d upon the Jews as a whole, then all would have suffered simultaneously, for "the hand of G-d is not short."-- Isaiah 59.1.

But you are entitled to your opinion, hateful as it is. I am glad I am not of your religion where I attribute disasters upon peoples as judgments from Heaven. I don't see how your view of intolerance by some Jews is therefore any different from your intolerance.

33

Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.

the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.

berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.

CalebInFloroda

I gather Pope Francis is doing what he can. I have close ties to the Catholic Church because of the work I have done with some of their Biblical scholars. Apparently the conservative voices in the Church can be very difficult to deal with, and many are resisting any type of change, some even being highly critical of the Pope, even on his comments regarding the Jews.

Sadly, however, even Pope Francis cannot change doctrine or produce new ones, so I don't see changes on birth control or other matters coming soon, not unless he can find a loophole that proves an underlying doctrine of the Church is being compromised by current beliefs.

I have learned from these same Catholic friends that contrary to belief a pope cannot make up new doctrines, neither is a pope infallible. Instead their doctrine is that a pope can only define a debated doctrine as dogma (i.e., state that the doctrine has indeed always been part of the Catholic deposit of faith since its founding), and that when a pope does this specific act of declaration, the declaration itself is infallible.

But such an infallible statement occurs only after years of research with input from clergy and layperson, theologian and average Joe. And there have only been two infallible teachings pronounced by a pope over the past 2000 years. Dogmatic pronouncements of this type only ensure that a doctrine is authentically Catholic and doesn't allow for new ones. So I am not sure how Pope Francis will deal with the upcoming synod in the United States where the issue of divorced and homosexual Catholics will be considered.