Posts by David2002

100

2006 SERVICE REPORT - Feb 1, 2007 WT

by Mary in

jw
friends

i'm not sure if anyone's posted this yet, but here are the figures for the 2006 service report.

i highlighted the countries that have either a "0" or negative growth in yellow and i highlighted key countries where the you would expect more growth......i tried looking for england's stats, but i couldn't see it.

i looked under "england" and "united kingdom" but i can't see it.

David2002

Mary, If you ever looked at the JW annual statistics, the United Kindgom is always listed under the Britain. Also, keep in mind that baptized publishers are counted as publishers even before they are baptized. Non-baptized publishers that preach and hand in a record of their activity are counted as publishers. There are cases where individuals have been preaching from 2-3 years, and counted as un-baptized publisher, before ever taking the plunge. So that explains why there is an actual increase of just over 100,000 instead of 247,00, because many of them were already counted as non-bapitzed publishers. I do not think the numbers are so dismal compared to other religious groups (just see recent press on how the Mormons are losing members, how it turns out many Evangelical conversions were really "false conversions, etc..). The 1.3 billion hours means time was given in preaching the good news as a witness to the world, and that is not time wasted(Matt. 24:14, Mark 13:8 ) Also, keep in mind that Witnesses membership figures count only those that actively preach and report their ministry activity. Attendance at Kingdom Halls bible meetings have grown steadily, and average attendance is usually double, even triple, the number of publishers. If Witnesses were to count members just on meeting attendance, then their membership figure would be 14.5 to 15 million. Also, keep in mind that there has been a rise in "inactive" members, particulary, the very elderly. According to one Witness, the "inactive" elderly average about 3 per congregation in the United States alone, and the average figure has grown higher in European countries, where they have a greater elderly population of Witnesses. Congregations consider them as beloved brothers and sisters, although since they may not actively preach, they are not included in the official publishers statistics. When you take into account that other religous groups do usually only count those who will attend church this Dec. 25, that count members that were baptized but left the church years ago, that count members that have continually practice sins,and are still considered members in spite of their confessions, Witnesses are doing pretty good.

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

Auldsold,

Please clarify: If I (1) claim to be God's sole, spirit-directed Channel of communication and I (2) state that I am the one to whom God is revealing special knowledge ahead of time, and I (3) make a prediction about the future, is that prediction a prophecy or not?

I already cited several WT sources that clearly state that the WTS is not infallible, that they are prone to make mistakes, and that they are not inspired like the prophets or the apostles. Since the time of Russell it was taught that time features of the Bible cannot be read with the same degree of certainty like basic Bible doctrines. God now uses men to preach the Bible truth, but since they are imperfect humans who are prone to make mistakes. Sometimes, as events in the world occur, the understanding of Bible prophecy becomes clearer and better understand. The apostles, for instance, who were inspired, thought that Jesus was going to start the kingdom immediately after his resurrection. They did not understand that the Messiah had to die first, then resurrected, and then there would be a long period of time before he came back in his presence to eventually come and establish the Kingdom, the New Age to Come. But they understood clearly after Jesus was resurrected, and after Jesus explained it to them, and after receiving the holy spirit. But even after receiving the holy spirit, the apostle Paul had to write to some Christians the end was not immediate, that it will be after the man of lawlessness is fully revealed. The anointed Christians of today are not inspired, as they have claimed over and over again consistently throughout their publications. Russell believed that 1914 was a marked year in the Bible, although he expected it mean the full establishment of the Kingdom by, and the expected the Church to be glorified by then. Even when that did not happen, he still believed 1914 was correct. But, he was right in saying before 1914, that not everything they expect to happen might happen in that year. (see some of the WT quotes I cited in earlier posts). He nevered avered that his understanding of the prophecies were error-free. As the Bible students continued to study the Scriptures, and saw events unfold in the world, they began to understand that 1914 marked the beginning of the pangs of distressed mentioned in Matthew 24, and the last days. True, reject the 607 BCE year, used to compute the 1914 figure, but even Bible scholars before Russell came to the same conclusion. Interestingly, the book Are We Living In the End Times, by Jenkins, also alludes to 1914 as the possible date for the beginning of the last days. Many 20th century historians also agree that 1914 was a marked year, the year the age of violence, age of famine, etc, began. Those events, in my opinion, confirm, that 1914 was the beginning of the pangs of distressed based on Matt. 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, and Rev. 6.

So even though the early Bible Students erred in what was to be expected, they turned out to be correct in pointing out to 1914 as the beginning of the last days. They never claimed to infallible, they never claimed to inspired, & no-where does the WT apply the term "inspired prophet" to the anointed class. They simply rely on the holy spirit of God to help them understand the Bible truths and prophecies and are willing to make changes when their understanding of a particular point become clearer.

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

AuldSold,

I just what to respond to some quotes regarding WT use of the word "prophet" as applied to themselves. You made some partial quotes, which are found all over the Internet. Many Anti-Witness Websites like to include quotes of the April 1, 1972 issue of the WT article "They Shall That Prophet is Among Them". But what does the full article really say:

IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? The clergy of the so-called "Christian" nations hold themselves before the people as being the ones commissioned to speak for God. But, as pointed out in the previous issue of this magazine, they have failed God and failed as proclaimers of his kingdom by approving a man-made political organization, the League of Nations (now the United Nations), as "the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth."
However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a "prophet" to warn them. This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.
Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?
During the World War I period this group, the International Bible Students, was very active in preaching the good news of God’s kingdom, as their Leader Jesus Christ had set this work before them in his prophecy at Matthew 24:14. They took literally Jesus’ words to the Roman governor Pontius Pilate: "My kingdom is no part of this world." (John 18:36) They also took to heart Jesus’ words to his followers: "You are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world." They expected to suffer for living according to that rule, just as Jesus went on to say, "on this account the world hates you." (John 15:19) Hatred toward them grew into violence during World War I.
These Bible Students had long been concerned with Ezekiel and his prophecy. In 1917 they published a book entitled "The Finished Mystery," explaining the book of Ezekiel as well as that of Revelation. This book criticized the clergy as false to the Word of Jehovah. Within nine months a ban was put on its circulation in the United States and Canada. Then eight members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, including its president and secretary-treasurer, were sentenced to prison in the Federal penitentiary, Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A.
Though the work of these Christians was crippled for a while, after only nine months the eight men were freed from prison, in March 1919. They accepted this as an answer from God to their prayers. Their work was revived, much to the consternation of the clergy, who had been behind the banning.
Accordingly, their magazine The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, in its issues of August 1 and 15, 1919, encouraged vigorous resumption of the work of preaching the good news free from the fear of men. Under the subject "Blessed Are the Fearless," the following statements were made:
"There is a fear which is very proper, and which everyone must have who is pleasing to God, and this is known as ‘Godly fear’. It means a holy reverence for Jehovah and a fear lest we should displease him and come short of the blessings he has promised us. . . . The Scriptures abound with testimony that those whom God approves do not fear man nor any other creature, but have a holy, reverential fear of Jehovah. In times of old Jehovah justified some men to friendship with him, and the record of his dealing with them was written for the benefit of the church."
Ezekiel was one of these men so used by God, and not only his prophecies, but also Ezekiel himself and his acts were pictorial of things to come.THE "PROPHET" SPEAKS TO CHRISTENDOMA General Convention was held by the International Bible Students at Cedar Point, Ohio, September 1-8, 1919. Thousands of Jehovah’s servants were present from the United States and Canada. There the Watch Tower Society’s president urged the fearless resumption of the work, and this with the use of the outspoken magazine entitled "The Golden Age." In the public talk delivered on the subject "The Hope for Distressed Humanity," the speaker declared that the Lord’s displeasure was certain to be visited upon the League of Nations,
"because the clergy—Catholic and Protestant—claiming to be God’s representatives, have abandoned his plan and endorsed the League of Nations, hailing it as a political expression of Christ’s kingdom on earth."
The League of Nations came into being in 1919 and began really to function when it was ratified by the signatory powers at Paris on January 10, 1920. But Jehovah’s servants continued to proclaim the Messianic kingdom of God. When the ban on The Finished Mystery was lifted, they resumed its circulation and, with it as a textbook, they continued to study the book of Ezekiel. As time went on and further developments fulfilled the prophecy of Ezekiel, a three-volume set of books titled "Vindication" provided an up-to-date understanding, showing more fully the application of the prophecy.
Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel’s work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God’s Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom. It is significant that, in 1931, after twelve years of faithful service despite the opposition of Christendom’s clergy, these followers of Christ embraced the name "Jehovah’s witnesses" at the same convention at which the book Vindication was released.—Isa. 43:10-12, American Standard Version.

Reading from the article in full, we notice that the word "prophet" is always in quotes, indicating that is used not in the sense of a prophet that makes predictions, but in the sense of one who teaches and explains the Bible truths. Notice how the article says that the Christians continued to study the prophesy of Ezekiel, and that the multi-volume set of Vindication "provided an up-to-date understanding, show more fully the application of the prophecy." That does not sound to me like their saying they are inspired prophets that received messages directly from God. They are merely explaining the Bible prophecies and teachings, and do a work similar to when prophet Ezekiel warned the Jews. The "prophet" is not given inspired messages, but in obeying the command of Jesus, they preach the good news of God's Kingdom in the hands of Christ, which includes warning the Pseudo-Christians. The WT issue of May 15, 1947, "Manner of Inspiring the Bible: No Such Inspiration Today" (pages 157-158), explains this in detail (This is another WT article I have seen quoted in the anti-Witness Websites):

This pouring out of God's spirit upon the flesh of all his faithful anointed witnesses does not mean those now serving as Jehovah's Witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes. It does not mean that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is inspired and infallible, although enemies falsely charge us with believing so...But we confess with the Scriptures that the day of such inspiration passed long before 1870, as the apostle Paul showed it would....Inspired speaking and writing passed away with the last of the twelve apostles, by whom the gifts of the spirit were imparted to others. Yet God is still able to teach and lead us. While confessing no inspiration for today for anyone on earth, we do have the privilege of praying to God for more of his holy spirit and for his guidance of us by the bestowal of his spirt through Jesus Christ.

Yes, the WT does not call itself an inspired prophet, nor did it ever teach that. One has to read the full WT articles, rather that relying on the mini quotes found in the Anti-Witness Websites. Searching through several WT articles for "inspired prophet", in the WT CD-ROM, I found the term used for Daniel, Isaiah, Amos, Ezekiel, Moses and other prophets of the Bible. But it is NEVER used or applied to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society nor of today's anointed Christians.

David2002

12

The Preaching Work

by TheListener in

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david2002 and i discussed this issue a little bit in a previous thread and agreed to discuss is in another thread.. david2002 i have created the thread but i will leave the first post to you.. please explain your viewpoint on door to door preaching and its biblical foundation.

David2002

TheListener, Sorry I took a while to respond. I was busy with discussions in the WT Feb. 1 2006 posts, and then I had a problem finding this thread. Well, to begin, I would like to start by saying, as the books of Acts clearly shows, the first Christian congregation was always actively preaching. The apostles had already received training by Jesus. Jesus preached the Kingdom of God publicly, and also peached the message in peoples homes as can be seen by Matt. 5:1, Matt. 9:10, 28, 35). In the very next chapter of Matthew, he instructs his disciples to go out preaching about the Kingdom in Matt.10:5-14. In part he said "When you enter any town or village, find out who is worthy, and stay there until you leave. Greet a household when you enter it, and if the household is worthy, let your peace be on it. But if it is unworthy, let your peace return to you. If anyone does not welcome you or listen to you words, shake the dust off your feet when leave that house or town." (CSB) The finding out of who is worthy obviously required visiting different peoples homes to find them. In Luke 10:1-7, Jesus gives similar instructions, but says also "Do not keep moving from house to house." Some have interpreted that as meaning that the apostles cannot visit peoples homes, and appears to contradict the literal translations of Acts 5:42 and Acts 20:20,21. Apparently Jesus their was alluding to the apostles finding lodging in one home when they entered a new town. The Rev. W. B. Godbey, A. M., in his Commentary on the New Testament, Volume 6 agrees that it does not contradict the apostles method of house-to-house preaching:" 'Into whatsoever city or village you enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and abide there until you may depart.' This is not an interdiction of house-to-house preaching; but their time was short, and the work too great to admit of it. Hence they are commanded to find some place with God's elect, and thence radiate out everywhere, preaching the Word, till they traverse the field." ( Included in the Essential Christian Library CD-ROM) Christians were commanded, by Jesus, to go and make disciples of peoples of all nations, Jesus said the the "good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all nations." (Matt. 24:14, Matt. 28:17-20; Mark 13:10). Also, in the book of Acts, Jesus said his disciples would be his witnesses, and the entire book of Acts show the first Christian congregation action, witnessing about Jesus and Jehovah God. Preaching the good news of the Kingdom, and how God raised Jesus from the dead; how God made Jesus the Lord of the congregation; how Jesus fullfilled the promise of God regarding the Messiah to be King; how God through the Messiah will restore all things in fullfillment of OT prophecies in which all the nations of the earth will be blessed and how Christians were being taken out, separated from among people to be a nation for God's name. (Acts 1:8, 2:17-36; 3:13-25; 4:10-12; 15:14-18) The witnessing method used to preach the good news was in public places, syngogues, in markets, and from "house to house". Godbey agrees that the house to house preaching method was practice in the first century. (All quotes taken from the Essential Christian Library CD-ROM, 2000 edition, which includes his Commentary)

Commentary on the New Testament, Volume 5
41, 42. This chapter winds up Luke's diurnal history of the Pentecostal revival, graphically describing the wonderful events of the first three days and two nights. Here you see clearly and unequivocally a solution of that vexed question among the warring sects, called Apostolical Succession. The last fifteen hundred years since the great Constantinian apostasy, as the centuries roll by we see the robed priests and plug-hatted clergy of all ages and denominations crossing swords and fighting over the Apostolical Succession, like dogs over a bone, each one claiming it, and anathematizing all of his competitors; all ridiculously stultifying themselves and advertising to the world the egregious folly and silly nonsense characteristic of human ecclesiasticisms. Reader, look here at the inspired record and see, once for all, the fac simile of Apostolical Succession. It certainly means to succeed the apostles, doctrinally, experimentally and practically. The way is open to all who will enter: Get a sky-blue regeneration, assuring you that your name is written in Heaven. Then get sanctified with the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire, as all the apostles did on the day of Pentecost. Then preach the gospel with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven, on the streets, and from house to house, like the apostles, who had no church edifices. Preach and testify, without fear of men or devils, amid roaring mobs, rocks, mud, clubs, eggs, et cetera, spending the night in jail. When they cruelly thrash you like dogs, in presence of the mocking multitude, go away with bleeding backs and roaring shouts, transported with delight, because you are counted worthy to suffer for Christ's sake. Then you will be in the regular Apostolical Succession. It is free. All who want it can have it. What about the clerical aspirants, going puffing tobacco-smoke and disputing over Apostolical Succession? Not one of them will touch it with a forty foot pole. Luke again here puts to record the facts so prominent in the Apostolic ministry, of preaching from house to house. This is the way to convert the heathen millions and evangelize the slums and the jungles. The Holy Ghost is calling for a round million to volunteer on this primitive Apostolic line of street and household preaching. Who will respond?

Rev. W. B. Godbey, A. M., Commentary on the New Testament, Volume 5
35. Here we find that the healing of Aeneas was wonderfully blessed of God in the awakening of the entire community, including the city of Lydda and the Plain of Sharon, extending from the sea back to the great mountain highlands of Judah and Benjamin. Consequently, many in those regions turned to the Lord. We see that it is our glorious privilege to serve our Master in the ministry of both soul and body, either proving an inspiration and an auxiliary of the other. Paul commands us earnestly to seek these gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:31); among which you will find the "gifts of healings." In the Apostolic succession, we should preach from house to house, everywhere ministering to' the sick in the interest of the soul and body. Thus you will find the Lord will bless your ministry to the sick, making it a valuable auxiliary in your access to the souls of the healthy as well as the sick.

Rev. W. B. Godbey, A. M., Commentary on the New Testament, Volume 5
15-21. They constantly everywhere make free to attend the Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath, preaching on the streets and from house to house through the week. Hence they go in and sit in the audience, by physique and costume recognized as Jews by the entire audience.

20, 21. Preaching and teaching publicly and from house to house, "the whole counsel of God," i.e., "repentance toward God," as all violation of law is high treason against the divine government. Hence repentance is purely Godward. The sinner sees that God Almighty has a quarrel against him. Therefore he trembles and quakes in view of impending doom, weeps, falls and cries for mercy. The proper attitude of faith is "toward our Lord Jesus Christ," since He is our only Mediator and atoning Substitute. When the sinner in utter desperation casts himself on the mercy of God in Christ then and there he receives a free pardon.

I agree with Godbey's viewpoint, that in addition to the other methods of preaching, the first century Christians, and the apostle Paul went from house to house to preach the goodnews. Some argue that in Acts 20:20, where it mentions that the apostle went house to house, that he was referring only to the elders. However, verse 21 clearly shows that he preaching to those in need of repentance. The apostle Paul continues to says regarding his house-to-house preaching that he was solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:20-21) The book Word Pictures in the New Testament, by A.T. Robertson, agrees that the apostle Paul preached house to house "By (according to) houses. It is worth noting that this greatest of all preachers preached from house to house and did not make mere social calls." (Vol. III, pages 349-350) Like Jesus, the apostle Paul preached from house to house, in peoples home. In 1 Cor. 11: 1 the apostles Paul wrote "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." Today, Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, like the first Christians (including the apostle Paul), preach the word, utitlizing all methods available, including "house to house."

--David2002

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

Auldsold,

A correction on part of a statement I made:

Russell himself emphasized the chronological bible doctrine can be read with the same absolute certainty as basic bible doctrine in the Jan. 1, 1914 WT (which I have never seen quoted in the anti-Witness sites) http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r5374.htm:

The above state should have read:Russell himself emphasized the chronological bible doctrine cannot be read with the same absolute certainty as basic bible doctrines in the Jan. 1, 1914 WT (which I have never seen quoted in the anti-Witness sites) http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r5374.htm:

David2002

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

jwfacts,

Even the JWs do not teach that the "meek will inherit the earth" is referring to its inhabitatation. Don' t forget that they say the NT was written predominantly for the anointed. That scripture refers to Jesus inheriting the earth as a 'gift'. Kindly he will allow some to live on it.
it-1 p.1201 Inheritance
“The anointed members of the Christian congregation are spoken of as having a heavenly inheritance, sharing Jesus’ inheritance as his “brothers.” (Eph 1:14; Col 1:12; 1Pe 1:4, 5) This includes the earth.—Mt 5:5.”
Watchtower 1958 March 1 p.139 “Blessed Are the Meek”
“Will that mark the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise: “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”? No, at least not primarily. Those words, first uttered by the psalmist David, apply first of all to the pre-eminently meek One, Jesus Christ, to whom his Father, Jehovah God, said: “Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession.” Inheriting the earth is part of his reward for his meek and faithful course while a man.—Matt. 5:5, AS; Ps. 2:8. Sharing this inheritance with Jesus Christ will be his “bride ,” those footstep followers of his, limited to 144,000, who will receive a heavenly reward. (Rev. 14:1, 3) Thus the apostle Paul tells them: “If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ.” Jesus refers to these specially favored followers of his as a “little flock.” However, the principle enunciated at Matthew 5:5 applies also to Jesus’ other sheep who, as meek ones, will receive everlasting life on earth. How so? In that they will hold the earth in trust for Christ and his bride , permanent tenants, as it were.”
The Jews believed that paradise referred to a place people went to after death.
The NT teaches a NEW earth, not this present one.

Those articles cited were from the 1950's. But even then it was argued that it applied to would live on earth forever. Matthew 5:5 is now applied to the meek who will inherit in earth by living on it. Psalms 37:10, 12, 29, which is believed by most scholars to be what Jesus was quoting, refers to those who live forever on earth. The bride of Christ will be in heaven with Jesus ruling over the earth (Rev. 5:10). The Bible clearly talks about a new earth and new heavens. That the "new earth" does not refer to a new globe can be easily by reading the entire context of 2 Peter 3:5-7, which mentions that the earth and heavens of the past were destroyed by a flood. Yet we know that we still live in the earth God originally created and the heavens are still the same. Gen. 11:1 mentions that the whole earth spoke one language, using earth as refering to people. Isa. 65:17-25 was originally applied to the nation of Israel when they returned from the Bablyon exile (most Bible scholars agree on this). There it talks about the new heavens and the new earth. Yet it was on this earth the Israelites remained in. The NT also refers to the new earth and the new heavens in the same way. It refers to a new world or a new age, when the earth is renewed and converted to a paradise, and inhabited by the meek. The new heavens refers to the Kingdom of the heavens finally taking over and destroying all other kingdoms. Isaiah 66:16-24, which also alludes to the new earth and heavens, clearly indicates in the last verses that it is on this earth in which Armageddon survivors will remain in. Isaiah 11:6-9 talks about the paradise conditions on earth. The fact of the matter is the NT as well as the OT taught that the meek will inherit and live forever on this earth.

--David2002

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

Ackack,

After I looked at the 607 BCE stuff, it opened my mind to examining other doctrines and quotes from the society. Its not that they haven't taught truth... its just its intermingled with many things that are false.

So which is more important? Unity or truth? Is it better to be united in an org with some false teachings or better to reject anything wrong, anything false and instead allow love to unite?

I heard the arguments against 607BCE and they are not compelling. I recommend you check a JW blog which discusses the issue in very lucid and easy-to-understand way at: http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/

I don't believe we are united by false teachings. Jehovah's Witnesses are united because they have a firm believe in the basic and simple true teachings of the Bible.

--David2002

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

Gary1914,

Actually, you are wrong. I am an elder and my brother is a District Overseer. He has privy to information that those of us on the elder level do not have access to. The problem of sexual perversion involving children is actually a large one among Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide and it is growing exponentially. The Society is doing its best to keep this as quiet as it is possible to do. That is why people who speak out against it and who go to the media are disfellowshipped. They do not want other witnesses talking to them and finding out how extensive the problem really is. You seem like a sincere and well meaning fellow and you are not afraid to read literature and visit websites that are critical of JWs. I respect that. It is only by being fully informed that any of us can make good choices. The Watchtower shows a complete lack of respect for its members by not allowing them to explore and question what they are being taught. If their teachings were indeed the Truth, they would not shy away from its scrutiny. I wonder how you would be viewed in the congregation that you are so quick to defend if you confessed that you were reading books by Stafford and the other gentleman you mentioned? Just curious.

The elders I spoken to said the problem is minimal, but still even a minimal problem with child molesters is bad. There is about 1% that is expelled each year, and in most cases it involves adults with other adults, or teenager with other teenagers, but rarely an adult with a child. As I mentioned in another post, the Jan. 1986 issue of the WT mentioned a list of sins people were disfellowshipped from, and it mentioned child abuse among them. That does not sound like the WTS is hiding something. JR Brown was interviewed several times, as well as other Witness attorneys, regarding some cases. They aknowledged that there have been cases & discussed the WT policy in handling. One WT official in Britian openly said he regretted what had happened to 2 young girls. The elders, of the congregation in which the girls attended, were all removed from their positions for not following WT instructions, Interestingly, some sociologists, including Rodney Stark, have spoken favorably of the WTS policy. The Website http:\\www.reformation.com reveals that the problem is being faced by all churches. I believe that the WTS policy of disfellowshipping pedophiles will help deter pedophiles from entering the congregation; by expelling them, they are also exposing them. Unlike some published reports by psuedo-newswires, parents have the right to report to the authorities. Articles regarding the problem has appear in the pages of the WT publications. So they are taking a pro-active role in educating the public about the problem.

Those who were "pointing out a problem", were not only pointing out a problem. Many of those individuals were not expelled for a long time. I believe JR Brown said in an interview, that one of the individuals just "did not understand" the Witness policy. However, many of those speaking against the WTS went on to say that the WTS is worse than the Catholic Church and that they harbor pedophiles, etc. I think that when they began spreading misinformation and slandering the true Christian congregation, that it was then decided that they must be expelled. If they repent, they will be gladly accepted back to the congregation. Now, personally, I agree with the point they made that the WTS policy should be changed so that it would be required that elders in all states (not just the states that require it by law) report the accusations made against individuals. On the other hand, I understand the Witnesses viewpoint that they may not be in a position to disfellowship due to the biblical law of 2 witnesses. And the WTS has stated that if accused is brougth to court, and additional evidence comes to light, such as DNA evidence, that evidence can be taken as a second Witness. Also, it is simply not true that JW's are worse than the Catholic and other churches. The Jehovah's Christian Witnesses Congregation is the only major Christian group that expels pedophiles, thus exposing them. Also, the Jehovah's Witnesses Congregagation was the first to deny elder or teaching positions to those guilty of child abuse. And while it is true, that current policy requires elders to report in state where the law demands it, elders can themselves report it , and can encourage parents to report child abuse cases, even if there are not 2 witnesses. The cases that I knew about in early 1980's were reported to the authorities. The WTS policy of expelling child abusers and encouraging parents to report it to the proper authorities helps maintain the congregation relatively free of those unrepentant perverts. Unlike the Catholic Church, which had transferred hundreds of priests that had confessed to abusing thousands of children, Jehovah's Witnesses have immediately removed any elders from their position and expelled them from the congregation. And even, if they repent afterwards, they cannot become elders. That was a completely different approach which the Witnesses were the first to institute and proves that they want to protect children (a few other churches later followed).

I mentioned in an earlier posts that other Witnesses have read books like from James Penton and Raymond Franz. Now-a-days, many prospective Witness converts get a library of anti-Witness books, including those written by Ex-Witnesses. Many of them still accept the true Jesus of the Bible and believe the WTS is teaching the truth, although it may take them longer to be convinced. Carolyn Wah (WT attorney) and Gregg Stafford have read their books, and they're still Witnesses. I don't know why you mention Gregg Stafford since he writes mainly pro-Witness books (although his second one on the Three Dissertations has some critisms, which I and other Witnesses disagree with, he does not viciously attack the Witneses and holds to the view that they teach the truth. In fact, he plans to releases a 3rd and updated edition of his book Jehovah's Witnesses Defended which is expected to be out in March 2006 (see elihubooks.com) . True Witnesses are not encouraged to Anti-Witness books, especially those by apostates. It has led some to have doubts. However, you cannot be expelled for reading them. A WT alluding to some reading ex-Witness books mentioned that some of them began doubting, and, in some cases, it took them awhile to overcome them. But they were helped to become firm in the faith again, not expelled. Othedr have read them and were not bothered by them, because they have a firm standing in the truth and cannot be deceived. And there appears to be more and more cases of individuals coming into the truth even after reading anti-Witness books given to them by friends or relatives. The truth is the truth, and those who study the Bible and believe it, will reject apostascy, and stand with Jehovah God and Jesus.

--David2002

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

Jeff,

I have my copy of the booklet Millions Now Living Will Never Die (actually a Xerox copy which my brother-in-law, a former Bethelite, gave me). And I know it stated that we MAY confidently expect the resurrection of the "ancient worthies." But at the same time, I also know that Rutherford held to the point of view that Bible chronological data cannot be read with the same certainty as basic Bible doctrines, as aggreeing with Russell's assessment. And he clearly wrote (which I quoted earlier) that 1925 MAY NOT mark the resurrection. So he gave his admonitions.

Regarding, 1975: I have asked brother who were in the truth prior to 1975 about whether or not they believed the end was coming. The vast majority tell me "no." I even know one sister who told me that her mother thought it was coming, but the daughter advised her not to fall into that conclusion. The fact is most Witnesses did not think the end of world was coming in 1975 because none of the publications stated that it will come. People quote titles of WT, but when you like at the text you find clearly statement that it is not known what 1975 will bring. The only thing that is known is that humankind will completed 6,000 years of existance in that year (which appears to held today). The Truth book which was used around that time, containing the basic Bible doctrines, does not mention 1975. True, the Truth book quoted from Famine 1975, but it said nothing about the end coming that year. ( I think people are pushing it when they mention that quoted book as prove the end is coming. The book was quote along with some other to show that there would be severe hunger problems in the world in the last days.)

I do not think that corrections in teaching make one an inspired prophet. Prov. 4:18 clearly shows the light of the truth will get brighter. In last chapter of Daniel, Daniel is told that he would not understand the prophecy, but the in the end there will be those who will understand. People in the last days do not have the gift of prophecy, nor are they inspired like the apostles or OT bible writers. However with the help of God's holy spirit, many will come to gradually understand Bible prophecies and other teachings.

I have a wide library of books not published by the WTS. I know of brothers who have studied in seminaries, some of which have divinity degrees, including former pastors, priests, nuns, and reverends. All of them, after a carefull study of the Bible, have come to the conclusion that God's is among the Jehovah's Christian Congregation, and that they teach the truth from the Bible. I know of one person who was given books by Raymond Franz, James Penton, and numerous Evangelical apologists. Yet she concluded that in Jehovah's Witneses really teach the Bible truth and have the true Jesus of the Bible. There have been Witnesses that have read anti-Witness essays and books, but still believe the WTS, in spite of expected imperfections, teach the truth. Carolyn Wah, one of WTS attorneys, has read books by both Penton and Franz, and she is still a Witness. Greg Stafford has read Franz's books, but he still defends the Witnesses as teaching the truth regarding the basic bible teachings (He also plans to release the 3rd edition of the book Jehovah's Witneses Defended). We can think for ourselves, know what the Bible teaches, and will not accept the half-truths and false allegations which being spread like poison. The point is if the Bible clearly teaching something, we cannot change our minds and accept false teachings which others are promoting. We only listed to the voice of God's Son and will not listen to the voice of a stranger. (John 10)

307

SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother in

i have had a quick look and found no references to this, so - here goes..as in the mag we picked up on sunday.. worldwide % increase over 2004 = 1.3%.

memorial partakers 8524 (compared to 8570 in 2004).

most european and nth american lands show pretty static figs - britain 1% increase, canada 0%, germany 0%, france 1%, usa 0%... but spare a thought for the inhabitants of zambia where 1 person in 90 is a reporting witness, must be hell going down to the local market!

David2002

AuldSoul,

Your quote from the January 1883 Watchtower on page 425 take on a completely different aspect in context. What was the "Evil Day" they were saying they had long seen they were living in, David2002? Was it the same evil day that didn't begin until 1914, or a different one?
David2002, you pulled that quote from one of the more recent Watchtowers, and you believed it was in context. Because you put trust in those nobles and earthling men, you believed them. I didn't put trust in them and look what I found. They aren't deserving of your trust, that's what I found.

Actually, I got my quotes from a JW Apologist site and from sites appearing include the full-text of the WT magazine. But even with your extended quotes, it still shows that the WTS, early on, said did not believe they had the gift of prophecy, which is the point I am making. The 1883 article in fulltext appears on http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r425.htm. True, at that time they understood the the "Evil Day" or last days began in 1874 (which we now believe 1914 is the correct date). But that still does not change the point that Russell said the that WT does NOT HAVE THE GIFT OF PROPHECY, and did not know when the time of trouble would come. The fact that they were in error, proved that Russell was right when he said that. Let's take one other quote which I cited early, with a fuller context, which is the points exactly to what I am saying: This is from the Zion's Watch Tower, January 1, 1908 - page 4110, fulltext of which is found at http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r4109.htm:

YET SEVEN YEARS MORE
From the foregoing it will be seen that to our understanding Christendom entered upon the final seven years of harvest time in October, 1907. Promptly on time the present panic gave Christendom a convulsive tremor, and it is our anticipation that the entire seven years thus started will witness a succession of panics and difficulties, each pressing a little more upon the interests of mankind, the rich as well as the poor, and each bringing conditions to a little harder plane than its predecessor, until, with the close of the seven years, during 1915, according to the Bible, we expect that anarchy will gain the upper hand of control throughout Christendom, overthrowing present institutions, civil and religious, financial and social, and in a general way plunging the poor world into the most awful trouble it has ever experienced--a trouble so dark, so terrible, that in referring to it the Master said, "Except those days be shortened there would no flesh survive." But then he added, that because of the Elect the days would be shortened. The Elect Church, at that time in glory with the Lord, and assuming the authority of the world, will at the proper moment intervene, and with divine power and wisdom bring order out of the confusion, and establish in the world righteous conditions, which the Scriptures assure us will then be welcomed by all mankind. Those now disposed to fight for present conditions will then, as a result of the chastening experience, be glad to look for and accept the new order of things--the reign of righteousness and love under the Millennial rule of the King of kings and Lord of lords, with whom in his throne will be associated [R4110 : page 5] the Bride, the Lamb's Wife--the Elect Little Flock of this Gospel Age.
We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises, the Scriptural basis for which is already in the hands of our readers in the six volumes of SCRIPTURE STUDIES. We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them; but showing our own faith by our works. Even our enemies must concede, and many of them do concede, that the facts as they have developed year by year since we began these presentations in 1876 have most wonderfully, most remarkably, corroborated our expectations and continue to do so. For instance, the Jews had not thought of returning to their own land when, in 1878, we pointed out that the time for favor to that people had chronologically begun, in fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy, "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith my God. Speak ye comfortably unto Jerusalem, and cry unto her that her appointed hour is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned; for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins." (Isa. 40:1,2.) Zionism was not dreamed of at that time, and began to take practical form seventeen years afterward

There we see some errors regarding chronology, but at the same time Russell makes a very clear statement that there may be mistakes. I see Russell as being honest and clear. That same thought and viewpoint was carried on throughout all the WT publications, in spite of the fact that some only quote certain parts, and completely ignore the fact that Russell, Rutherford, and others clearly stated that they were not inspired prophets and that chronological biblical data may be difficult to interpret and subject to error. Russell himself emphasized the chronological bible doctrine can be read with the same absolute certainty as basic bible doctrine in the Jan. 1, 1914 WT (which I have never seen quoted in the anti-Witness sites) http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r5374.htm:

"REST IN THE LORD"
This vision is to be made clear at the appointed time. We may not read the time features with the same absolute certainty as doctrinal features; for time is not so definitely stated in the Scriptures as are the basic doctrines. We are still walking by faith and not by sight. We are, however, not faithless and unbelieving, but faithful and waiting. If later it should be demonstrated that the Church is not glorified by October, 1914, we shall try to feel content with whatever the Lord's will may be. We believe that very many who are running the race for the prize will be able to thank God for the chronology, even if it should prove not accurate to the year, or even out of the way several years. We believe that the chronology is a blessing. If it should wake us a few minutes earlier or a few hours earlier in the Morning than we would otherwise have waked, well and good! It is those who are awake who get the blessing.
If 1915 should go by without the passage of the Church, without the Time of Trouble, etc., it would seem to some to be a great calamity. It would not be so with ourself. We shall be as glad as any one if we shall all experience our change from earthly to spirit conditions before 1915, and THIS IS OUR EXPECTATION; but if this should not be the Lord's will, then it would not be our will. If in the Lord's providence the time should come twenty-five years later, then that would be our will. This would not change the fact that the Son of God was sent by the Father, and that the Son is the Redeemer of our race; that He died for our sins; that He is selecting the Church for His Bride; and that the next thing now in order is the establishment of the glorious Kingdom at the hands of this great Mediator, who during His Mediatorial Reign will bless all the families of the earth. These facts remain the same. The difference would be merely that of a few years in the time of the establishment of the Kingdom. If October, 1915, should pass, and we should find ourselves still here and matters going on very much as they are at present, and the world apparently making progress in the way of settling disputes, and there were no time of trouble in sight, and the nominal Church were not yet [R5374 : page 5] federated, etc., we would say that evidently we have been out somewhere in our reckoning. In that event we would look over the prophecies further, to see if we could find an error. And then we would think, Have we been expecting the wrong thing at the right time? The Lord's will might permit this. Our expectation as a Church is that our change is near. Nothing of Restitution blessings can come to the world until after the Church has been glorified.

So here is Russell again declaring the fallibility of the WT. Russell emphasized, and even quoted in front of his publications, the text of Prov. 4:18 stating that the light will get brighter. He and the other members of the governing body alway emphasized that they are not perfect. But they taught the basic truth of the Bible, that Jesus is God's Son sent to be the Savior of the world, that's God name is Jehovah, that the soul dies, that there will be resurrection of the good and bad, that Jesus has a God and Father, that there will be a paradise earth, etc. So the fundamental, easy-to-understand, Bible doctrines were always taught by them. When one examines the Bible closely, they will see they teach what the Bible really teaches (Acts 17:11). And at the same time they teach that they are not infallible. Like the apostles and first century Christians they had false expectations. But like the first century Christians they adjusted their views.

--David2002