Posts by Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Hello AuldSoul

You are completely correct. I do have a set of circumstances in mind that I want to vindicate. If it is appearing far too myopic on my part then I apologize. I know what my experience was when I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I was told that my experience was unlikely or probably rare. So I wanted to find out how far on the rare side it was.

Revelation is for the main leaders producing watchtower literature not exactly for the general lay member. However, members are encouraged to pray and seek guidance for important life events and can feel close to god through basking in some form of spiritual closeness attributed to the JW god.

Likewise, investigators or "student" looking in to JW especially those coming from other religions are also encouraged to pray about what they are reading and learning. At this point it gets fuzzy. You cleared it up with this:

The fact is, whatever convinces a specific individual in the group is satisfactory to everyone else whether they were convinced by the same means or not. If I said I knew it was the truth because of the scholastic atmosphere at the Kingdom Hall, I would get several appreciative nods and a few comments about how amazing it is that different things draw different people.

And that casts a broad net which also basically includes my experience of asking God if it was true or not (I never did, by the way, the format seemed too contrived to get past the first couple of study sessions).

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Thanks for the patience and willingness to explain much.

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Thanks Narkisso and Juni

These are extremely insightful responses. I got much more than I bargained for in this shopping trip of thoughts.

Plowing on here... If one is facing DF, and has the ten day clock ticking, would he have an inclination to hit his knees in humble prayer to ask the god of JW to reassure him, or rectify his doubts?

In what form does this reassurance come (if it does)? Emotional epiphany?

Aside from that line of questioning:

Do you ever feel close to the god of JW during prayer? Warmth? An infusion of strength? Peace? If so, doesn't that qualify as spiritual guidance in the form of feelings? Don't be afraid to admit it happens in the WTS, it does not mean it was "true" any more than it means they were really great at manipulating you to get you to do what they wanted. I received this type of experience often in Mormonism. It's all man made, IMO.

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Narkissos says it is accepted after a feeling comes that is supposedly from Jehovah. A confirmation. That was my experience in studying with them.

Narkissos responds:

Actually I meant that this can happen and is welcomed if it does, but it is not expected, and is not felt as something missing if it does not.

Noggin responds:

Okay. So that still fits with my experience. Those in the WTS knew I was Mormon. I told them that any Mormon converting from Mormonism to JW would likely need a spiritual manifestation to do so. I think that is why they answered the way that they did.

The bottom line that I am getting is that I am finding out that JW do not believe that the body of members need personal revelation to direct the affairs of their lives. That just seems so odd to me with my old Mormon background.

In Mormonism, one seeks personal revelation as to which job they should take, whom they should marry, what school/university they should attend. They are extended "callings" or jobs in the church and are encouraged to pray about the job and receive a "Yes" answer from God that he really does want you to serve the Mormon church in that capacity. They are encouraged to seek God's approval in every significant event. The "answers" from god are extremely feelings based.

The Jehovah's Witness does not pray to God over important items like this? I think that they do. In fact, I just searched the JW official web site and found this:

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2003/5/1/article_02.htm

"What would you like to ask God? How God answers prayers" which posits that the members ask, and the JW god responds.

In WTS, good feelings just ebb and flow and they aren't trumped up as the end all be all? It is almost, from what I gather, expected... "Of course we feel good here at church, this is God's true church". The truth, once one is emerged/enmeshed into the cult, is carte blanche accepted.

What about if one has serious doubts as a member? What if their doubts are so significant that they are considering leaving? What are they encouraged to do? Are they not encouraged to pray and seek another confirmation?

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Noggin, hi and welcome.
Probably you are referring to the statement, "The truth has a certain ring about it." Has someone said those words to you?
Reread Leolaia's explanation. Very understandable and right on the target. Juni

Hi Juni No one told me that couplet. Is it an article published by the WTS? I would be most interested in reading it. Do you have a link? I'd even go buy it. Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Thanks so much Leolaia for your comments. They make a lot of sense.

Leolaia writes:

The "sinker" comes when the idea is introduced that God has always had an organization and is himself organized. If JWs teach the truth and are the only true religion, then it is relatively easy to accept that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is "God's earthly organization". And once that idea is accepted, then any teaching stemming from the organization can be accepted as true, even if it has no biblical basis, such as the teachings about "1918" and "1935", or that the Society is to be identified as "faithful and discreet slave" in Matthew.

The mechanics of "Once that is accepted" is what I am after. I am after how that gets to be accepted in one's mind. Narkissos says it is accepted after a feeling comes that is supposedly from Jehovah. A confirmation. That was my experience in studying with them. This type of revelatory process is the basic premise of all of the One and Only True Religions be it pentecostals, SDA, Catholics... and definately Mormons. I had some aquaintences on another forum board tell me that there is no personalized confirmation feeling from a supposed JW god entity leading investigators into the WTS.

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Narkissos wrote:

I would submit that subjectivity is also implied, although in a much less systematic way than the Mormon appeal to "inner testimony". The JW "student" is encouraged to pray, ask for Jehovah's spirit and guidance, and any religious feeling s/he can get in this context will be welcomed as a confirmation of the "truth". (Of course, any religious experience pointing to a different direction will be explained away as a deception from the devil.)

Yes, that was my experience. I was told to study the WTS literature, compare it to the bible, and then pray about it for guidance from Jehovah. I was told to seek for a confirmation.

THANKYOU! I knew I wasn't crazy.

Narkissos continues:

Basically I think this is not qualitatively different from the way any religious organisation treats religious subjectivity -- welcoming it as long as it confirms objective "orthodox" doctrine, dismissing it when it gets different. The difference is quantitative. There is little room for mystical experience and expression among JWs, but I wouldn't say it is totally absent. I remember that when my stepmother told her "JW testimony" she always said she "immediately felt it was the truth", and nobody ever objected to that...

Your stepmother felt immediately that it was true. That is exactly what I am talking about. That is the divine providential guidance I am referring to. There is an inner compass reading that investigators are supposed to tune into in order to find out that the WTS is the Truest religion on earth. And Jehovah is supposedly the entity behind that compass.

Incidentally, I suppose after the conversion experience, that is when the mystical experiences drop off? I can see that. Once you have the conversion experience, are baptised, then it is all faith in what the WTS says and produces. That makes sense.

If anyone else reading this post has viable information that refutes this, I am extremely interested in knowing it. I really am only interested in what is real.

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

So back to my original post:

My question: How do Jehovah's Witnesses know that they have the Truth?

The response is varied.

If they do not use feelings for ratification, what do they use?

So JW's declare to the world that they are the truth on nothing more than:

The WTS is true (i.e. God's only earthly organization) because we say it is true ???

Isn't that completely teleological?

"Our bible is the Truth (truer than those other Christian sect bibles) because we say it is"

I know that those I studied with told me that God (Jehovah) would lead me to the Truth. I guess I inserted my Mormon background into that assertion in thinking that I would be able to tell the WTS was true through a spiritual witness.

Incidentally, how do they employ verses such as James 1:5?

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of god...

Galations 5:22 fruits of the spirit?

If there is no spiritual feeling portion to the WTS, it appears like a defunct, spiritually dead religion that, amazingly, thrives for some reason (people fear leaving?).

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

AuldSoul:

Thanks for your response. When I studied with the JW's, they knew I was a former Mormon. I was used to the concept that a man could ask god if Mormonism was true and then God was supposed to answer through the Holy Ghost. So I asked the JW's I studied with how I could know that they were really the true church above all others. I was told that the truth would just hit me. I was encouraged to pray for god's will to show up in my life. I was encouraged to ask for divine guidance. I assumed that meant god would speak to my heart in similar fashion as done in the Mormon church.

I hear what you are saying about the divine appointment of the 1918 JW founding authority.

I am befuddled that 6 million JW's take that this appointment happened on blind faith.

1. There is no ratification to the individual member? No spiritual manifestation that the appointment happened?

2. If not, what is the spiritual component of the JW faith?

3. Perhaps I was told that I would be able to distinguish that the Watchtower was true above all other religions via feelings during bible study or a KH meeting because they already knew I was conditioned to think this way from my Mormon roots?

Anyone with helpful insights are welcome to comment

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Clarifying:

I have gathered a few quotes from the Watchtower which indicate that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the Only true church on earth or that one must be JW to inherit heaven. Here is one of them: *** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 *** "Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God’s new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization — God’s visible organization — that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal… You must be part of Jehovah’s organization, doing God’s will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life…" 1. By what means does a Jehovah's Witness trust this is as life guiding empirical truth? 2. I was told that the truthfulness of the Watchtower just "hits you" during a bible study or at a KH meeting isn't that the spirit of god working in men? 3. How do JW's know everyone else outside of the Watchtower is in error? Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Breif background: I am an ex mormon. That church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the Book of Mormon. Highly reliable, right? Anyway. Cult mindsets fascinate me now. I have studied twice with a JW bible study group and have attended one KH meeting. I seek to understand what the binding agent is in the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am in an online discussion currently at a Mormon forum discussing the unreliability of using feelings to prove Truth. I entered my experience with the JW's where I was told that god would reveal the truth in JW to me. I was told that no JW would ever tell me that.

My question: How do Jehovah's Witnesses know that they have the Truth? If they do not use feelings for ratification, what do they use? The infallible word of god? Isn't that completely teleological?

"Our bible is the Truth because we say it is"

???

Noggin