Posts by Noggin

17

Pharisees!

by Good Girl or Bad Girl? in

i'm sure this kind of thing has been discussed before, but who here thinks the elders remind them of the pharisees with their guidelines strict rules?

like the length of a slit in your skirt, or no sideburns on men or no beards, or men can't dye their hair, or no colored dress shirts or suits on the "brothers".

they would say these were guidelines but then take your "privileges" away if you didn't comply.

Right off the bat I read about a child getting "counseled" over his hair not being styled correctly and I cringe. I had that only I was age 19 through 21 as a Mormon missionary. Length of hair, what underwear I wore, never allowed to be alone, ever. Constant scripture reading and memorization and singing hymns. That was 2 years of Pharisee boot camp. But I loved it though. I can't deny it. I loved the structure, the reward. I was conditioned from day one to long to go on a mission.

I am interested in this thread to gain more of an insight as to what degree of control is foisted upon the JW membership. Small, large, whatever. More basis for comparison. It's refreshing to see another group of people are dealing with such similar issues.

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

Qcmbr wrote:

Each believer in religion faces a similar test with one important exception - there is a lot more at stake than presents and getting it wrong has a tremendous personal cost (and depending upon where we think we are in the test is to what we think the cost is.)

I am glad you responded, Qcmbr. I have to say that for me, it came down to whether or not I could trust Joseph Smith. How reliable was he? Would I pledge a lifetime commitment to his ideology if he were the current prophet today doing the types of things he did back in the 19th century? Could he really translate ancient documents? Why is the Book of Abraham controversial? What does that say about Joseph Smith? What was the depth and breadth of the polygamy movement? Did Smith ever lie about that? Did he really start a bank (in the name of the lord) on speculative circumstances that caused many of the early saints to lose their life savings? Did he really require the saints to turn in the deeds of their properties in Nauvoo and then later sell it all off for himself at absorbant profits?

There was the primer. It took 7 years of anguishing study pouring over documents and literature. These past two final years I concentrated soley on Mormon church produced materials like Journal of Discourses, Book of Abraham and D&C 132 for starters. The Millenial Star and history of the church was insightful too. There is enough there to cause the solid questions to emerge but one has to be willing to see that the Mormon church has not been forthright with their depiction of their history.

For me, it also came down to this:

A) If the Mormon church was not true, would I want to know it (I would but some, like my devout wife do not wish to know)

B) If the Mormon church was not true, HOW would I know it?

Certainly not from lapping up every sacrament meeting talk or home teaching visit. I am horrified with the amount of grossly misrepresented historicals getting burped up over the pulpit practically each time I attend. I would also not know it from what the church broadcasts in general conference twice a year. That is completely sanitized. I'll leave it at that. I am not here to convince you in any way shape or form. Just offering my deconversion world up for public consumption. The parallels between Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are so similar in the deconversion process!

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

Rev Moon

Do you do that often? Assume that all speak french? That's new. Or maybe I missed that everyone but me speaks french here. Pero, quizas Ud. no habla engles y esto es la unica manera de que Ud. puede comunicarse con esta forum. No importa. Que tenga un buen dia.

Yeah, that probably didn't help... uh, I hope you weren't cryptically calling me a horses patoot

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

Hi there!

So, you'd like more info... I can do that! Most of what I have been through is on my website at www.mrr1968.com. Please, if you stop by feel free to sign the guest book at the top left hand of the main page.

I jettisoned the concept of religion down the rabbit hole of discovery. I do not wish to offend the theists on this board so I say that though I might cordially challenge the existence of a god, or give license that a god may exist as in a remote possibility, I personally do not believe in any god. I am part secular humanist. I am mostly a non theist... and **fingernails on the chalkboard** a soft atheist. But definately not agnostic. I used to be an "agnostic atheist" but that was too nambsy pambsy. I am on my first year as a non theist. After going full tilt with the full monty atheist suit on, I found that it appeared to be kind of just as dogmatic as the theist suit so I backed off.

I am married to a devout Mormon. So this backing off has served our household well. I do not know if there is one god or three gods or if the god concept is comprised of a 14 billion year old three lined algorithm that has set things in motion but since long expired. I have shirked the controlling tactics and am happier than I have ever been.

Genesis asked:

1- Do your study on religions (and cults) worthed it ? It seemed to be very interesting (especially in non Judeo Christian faith like Eckankar and Scientology).

I had to do that. I had to study the top One and Only True Religions of the world. See, it's that old BS detector. It was so easy for me to see that the JW's were controlling it's general membership. I easily dismissed this religion as bunk. Yet I struggled so terribly, I even agonized over the doom that awaited me if I left Mormonism. Studying the other religions and rubbing shoulders with them and having them laugh easily about the Truth claims of Mormonism made it easier for me to see the bigger picture of how mind control really works. They all so easily dismissed Mormonism. Without even a care. And here I was angstifying over it. Then I noted how angstified some of the fence sitting JW's were about leaving the WTS. Such confliction! Just like ME with Mormonism! It was a HUGE eye opener.

My most recent foray was Scientology. I attended a meeting and did everything except go into a group auditing session. That experience is on my website under "My brush with other religions". It was mind blowing to see these people so wrapped up in the Scientology dogma. I am sure it works for them. It did not work for me. Investigating other religions provided the stark contrast I needed to finally exit. It took me 7 years off and on.

2-You seemed to still believe things that you have gathered from numerous cults (like Astral Projections and Astral travels), how do you put all that in one explanation ?

When I studied with Eckankar, I read many books, and met privately with a 5th level initiate (that's kind of high up). I did their HU chant over and over in an attempt to tap into the sound and light current, and even tried to leave my body. I had an experience real enough to convince me that they probably do believe that they travel outside their bodies. In fact, many ex-Eckists who leave Eckankar become staunch Christians and never deny that they left their bodies in meditation. They just put the Christian spin on it that whoever leads them around as their spirit guides on the astral plane is not a enlightened holy being as the Eck says... but truly a devil. I also have read a few scientific journals that are now delving into the various parts of the brain. When certain parts are physically prodded or poked or bathed in certain chemicals, the patient reports out of body experiences.

Pretty interesting. It neither proves or disproves any religion to me though.

3- Are you now an atheist or you still believe in something higher ?

I still attend the Mormon church about twice a month with my devout wife. I do not partake in any ritual or sustaining votes of officers. I do not wear a tie anymore. I attend the first hour and leave. I try to be cordial and friendly but I wish to not associate with them past that. It has been engrained in me from birth that there is a higher power. I can't help but recognize the possibility that something more intelligent could have very well created me. When I go to the church with my wife I try to feel reverence for that possibility. It doesn't kill me to do it. However, I will not allow myself to worship it. I think it is a good idea to engage in introspection a couple times a month about one's place in the Universe. I use this time to do that. Plus it gives my wife the satisfaction of having a family church experience a couple times a month (we have two small children).

Qcmbr wrote:

What do you believe now? Do you reject all the supposed truth of Mormonism or just parts of it?

I reject all of Mormonism. I no longer even try the soft approach in trying to see the "good fruit" on the Mormon tree. It is a social virus. My kids will read the best books and I will engage them in thought provoking questions about life and existential matters. I want them to grow up tolerant of other religions, but to have a healthy grounding to reality. If in the end they choose to worship as their mother does, I hope that I will have behaved in such a manner that our relationship will not be compromised. They are everything to me. I hope that answered your question Qcmbr?

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

I used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that I KNEW the Mormon Church was God's ONLY true church on the face of the earth. I used to be made up of a highly Polarized Mormon Mind Set . I knew what I knew, but how did I know it? Turns out that my premise was extremely tenuous and unproven. It is amazing the level of confidence one can achieve from such unproven and unreliable context. As a Mormon missionary, I asserted to literally thousands in Europe that Mormonism was God's only true church. I have long suspected that the faith taught to me was not all that it was cracked up to be. My doubts started to increase to unavoidable levels about 10 years ago. In truth, my suspicions started in the midsts of my early Mormon Seminary experience when I encountered some pretty strange doctrines and inconsistencies within the Mormon structure. However, I was taught that The Spirit was the Testifier of ALL truth. I was taught that if I felt good when I prayed, nothing else mattered. This feeling was testifying to me that Mormonism was The Truth. I became confused when I would talk to my religious friends of other faiths who also felt "The Spirit" at their churches. I rationalized this to mean that they only had "part" of God's Truth but that Mormons had "All" of it. That worked for years but left me wanting. I embarked on a Mormon 2 year mission to Spain, Barcelona. In Spain I encountered all kinds of religions. Roman Catholics, Baha'I, Spiritualists, Kabbalists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostals... it was fantastic. I recall one experience in particular where my companion and I thumped bibles with Pedro the Jehovah's Witness. We walked away from our discussions that took place over three different days quite perplexed... at least... I was. Clash of the Titan Ideologies: Pedro was just as convinced he had God's Truth as I was. There was no mistaking it. He called me on the carpet. I was in error according to him. He discussed the concepts of Paradise and also JW Armageddon with me and my missionary companion. He told me that I was wrong about God. I showed him passage after passage where he was wrong. We were at complete loggerheads. Thus began my fascination with religious ideology. I have always remained intrigued, to my religious undoing, as to how people believe what they believe. So we parted ways with Pedro, the Jehoavah's Witness. We had testified through the power of the Spirit that Joseph Smith was God's prophet who restored God's church on earth in our day. Pedro had rejected this firmly. We walked away satsfied that we had done our Mormon duty in warning Pedro. We knew that he would one day stand before God and be accountable for his rejection of our message that day. I distinctly recall joking with my missionary companion about an uncomfortable "what if" scenario. What if, like, when we died and went to stand for judgement before God, we stood there before him and God sadly looked at us. What if he called Pedro to our tribunal? Pedro, did you not explain to Noggin and his companion that the watchtower society was my truth? Yes, God, I did. Noggin, did you accept the message from my servant, Pedro? No, God, I did not. I am sorry, Noggin, you will not qualify for heaven. You chose to follow Joseph Smith. Oh we had a good laugh about that. My missionary companion and I laughed and laughed. A hearty guffaw. So convinced were we that Mormons had the truth that it never entered our minds that our basis for Truth was just as sketchy as Pedro's. We further imagined how angry we would be with God for deceiving us. But no, God did give us a chance... did he not? He did send Pedro to witness of the Truth. Each time I encountered another Jehovah's Witness with a different missionary companion I would run the same scenario by him and we would have the same hearty guffaw. I never forgot that scenario. In later years it served me well to start fostering some critical thinking skills and eventually paved the way for me to exit the faith of Mormonism. I am now out. I am free from any religion. Thanks, Pedro, wherever you are. Noggin

17

What did you seek to acccomplish going door to door?

by Noggin in

i am back.

this time i won't lead you to what i want to hear.

promise.

Noggin

As a former Mormon, I spent 2 years full time doing something similar to the JW field service as a missionary. It was awkward wearing the black badge of "Elder" as a 19 year old kid running amuck in the streets of Spain pestering people. I hear you guys. It was rough. If I had to do that every week starting as a youngster... ugh.

Thanks for the great responses. I am amazed that so many get out and actually do it. It appears that many don't find "joy" in it. But then again, were I to ask a devout JW if he enjoyed field service, he wouldn't likely give me a negative response... even if he truly despised it. I am sure that in order to continue doing it week in and week out a certain positive attitude would have to be continually fostered.

Noggin

17

What did you seek to acccomplish going door to door?

by Noggin in

i am back.

this time i won't lead you to what i want to hear.

promise.

Noggin

I am back

This time I won't lead you to what I want to hear. Promise.

Is the reason the JW's go door to door to find converts?

What do they hope to accomplish by going door to door-- best case scenario? A new convert? a book sale? a chance to roar like a lion about the JW bible?

**cringing** Is there any mystical force that you employed while engaging in non JW's about the bible?

Did you ever felt impressed by Jehovah's spirit to go down a different street than the one you were about to because someone there needed to hear your message? Did you ever feel "guided" to someone's door?

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Hello AuldSoul

You are completely correct. I do have a set of circumstances in mind that I want to vindicate. If it is appearing far too myopic on my part then I apologize. I know what my experience was when I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I was told that my experience was unlikely or probably rare. So I wanted to find out how far on the rare side it was.

Revelation is for the main leaders producing watchtower literature not exactly for the general lay member. However, members are encouraged to pray and seek guidance for important life events and can feel close to god through basking in some form of spiritual closeness attributed to the JW god.

Likewise, investigators or "student" looking in to JW especially those coming from other religions are also encouraged to pray about what they are reading and learning. At this point it gets fuzzy. You cleared it up with this:

The fact is, whatever convinces a specific individual in the group is satisfactory to everyone else whether they were convinced by the same means or not. If I said I knew it was the truth because of the scholastic atmosphere at the Kingdom Hall, I would get several appreciative nods and a few comments about how amazing it is that different things draw different people.

And that casts a broad net which also basically includes my experience of asking God if it was true or not (I never did, by the way, the format seemed too contrived to get past the first couple of study sessions).

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Thanks for the patience and willingness to explain much.

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Thanks Narkisso and Juni

These are extremely insightful responses. I got much more than I bargained for in this shopping trip of thoughts.

Plowing on here... If one is facing DF, and has the ten day clock ticking, would he have an inclination to hit his knees in humble prayer to ask the god of JW to reassure him, or rectify his doubts?

In what form does this reassurance come (if it does)? Emotional epiphany?

Aside from that line of questioning:

Do you ever feel close to the god of JW during prayer? Warmth? An infusion of strength? Peace? If so, doesn't that qualify as spiritual guidance in the form of feelings? Don't be afraid to admit it happens in the WTS, it does not mean it was "true" any more than it means they were really great at manipulating you to get you to do what they wanted. I received this type of experience often in Mormonism. It's all man made, IMO.

Noggin

40

How do JW know they have the Truth?

by Noggin in

breif background: i am an ex mormon.

that church preaches that through powerful feelings sent by god, one can know the truth of the book of mormon.

highly reliable, right?

Noggin

Narkissos says it is accepted after a feeling comes that is supposedly from Jehovah. A confirmation. That was my experience in studying with them.

Narkissos responds:

Actually I meant that this can happen and is welcomed if it does, but it is not expected, and is not felt as something missing if it does not.

Noggin responds:

Okay. So that still fits with my experience. Those in the WTS knew I was Mormon. I told them that any Mormon converting from Mormonism to JW would likely need a spiritual manifestation to do so. I think that is why they answered the way that they did.

The bottom line that I am getting is that I am finding out that JW do not believe that the body of members need personal revelation to direct the affairs of their lives. That just seems so odd to me with my old Mormon background.

In Mormonism, one seeks personal revelation as to which job they should take, whom they should marry, what school/university they should attend. They are extended "callings" or jobs in the church and are encouraged to pray about the job and receive a "Yes" answer from God that he really does want you to serve the Mormon church in that capacity. They are encouraged to seek God's approval in every significant event. The "answers" from god are extremely feelings based.

The Jehovah's Witness does not pray to God over important items like this? I think that they do. In fact, I just searched the JW official web site and found this:

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2003/5/1/article_02.htm

"What would you like to ask God? How God answers prayers" which posits that the members ask, and the JW god responds.

In WTS, good feelings just ebb and flow and they aren't trumped up as the end all be all? It is almost, from what I gather, expected... "Of course we feel good here at church, this is God's true church". The truth, once one is emerged/enmeshed into the cult, is carte blanche accepted.

What about if one has serious doubts as a member? What if their doubts are so significant that they are considering leaving? What are they encouraged to do? Are they not encouraged to pray and seek another confirmation?

Noggin