Posts by Noggin

23

What Is A Religious Cult

by RevFrank in

being around comparative religions for almost 50 years i've seen many religions come and go.

of course a cult is basically when people get together and follow what ever it may be.

now when we come to religions...anything can go...why?

Maybe this is overkill. I had to come to grips that Mormonism exhibited cult like behaviors and traits. Here is an essay I wrote as I worked through this. I can't tell you how painful it was to realize that, even if Mormonism was not a 100% bonefide cult, I had been manipulated to significant degrees by my parents and peers... without them even knowing it. This piece addresses it. To see the most convincing case against Mormonism as a cult, scroll down to item #14 below. Posted last year 2005 to an EX Mormon recovery board: Disclaimer: I don't entirely believe that the Mormon church is a cult. I seriously studied it though and found evidence that suggest it could be significantly argued that it is a cult. I outline what I found below. As a side note: In many ways, the US Marine Corp could also be construed as a cult. I actually believe the Marine Corp and AMWAY/QUIXAR are as much a cult as the Mormon church is. I don't know what that says. The fact remains that there definately ARE cults among us. The other blatantly obvious fact is that anyone inside a bonefide cult will never see his or her organization as a cult . Which is why I delved into this research: Subject: "We are NOT a cult"... some observations on this Mormon statement Date: Jan 19 2005 Recently, I finished Steve Hassan's book "Combating cult mind control". I looked to see if the Mormon church would be brought up as an example of a cult and it was not. The book focused more on the destructive cults like the Moonies, The Way, The people's temple (Jim Jones) etc. Hassan was a top Moonie recruiter for 2 or 3 years and after a debilitating accident, he was wrenched out of the Moonie cult and deprogrammed successfully. He never returned and has since spent his life deprogramming other cult members. Throughout the book I drew cult parallel after cult parallel. Until I read this book, I never considered the Mormon church as a cult. I concluded that the church takes on many prevalent cult characteristics. The last chapter in particular hit me that my mission experience in Spain was the biggest parallel to Hassan's Moonie cult experience. The Mormon temple experience also takes on significant cult characteristics. Here is my observation list... in progress of course: 1. In Temple worthiness recommend interviews, members are told that the interviewer represents Jesus and should answer all questions as if they were talking to Jesus. This is a break down of barriers designed to condition the member to completely submit to the Mormon church’s authority. Also, the temple worthiness factor by itself is a good example of exclusivity that many cults try to foster in purification rituals and the like. 2. Naked touching in the temple washing and anointing ritual also breaks down barriers, creates submission to church authority [This "eternal" (decreed by christ himself) ordinance was changed in Jan 2005] 3. A new, secret, name given to the new temple initiate suggests reassignment of identity 4. Temple endowment experience is hypnotic, produces a relaxed, even sleepy alpha like state for receptivity to church indoctrination, oaths, instruction, commitment. I observe it to be similar to the Moonie repetitive indoctrination sessions where chanting, singing, and long periods of lecturing happen. 5. Secret signs, tokens, passwords are required to be learned in order for the initiate to gain access into the Mormon heaven. If one does not have this exclusive information, they will be denied access past certain angels along the way back to God's presence. This is an element of control designed to produce exclusivity. Incidentally, one of the strictest requirements in Mormonism is the financial tithing requirement. If a Mormon does not pay a full 10% of his income to the Mormon church, he cannot enter the temple. If one does not enter the temple, he does not learn the secret handshakes and pass codes. Hence, he will be denied full access into the highest of Mormon heavens that includes being with his family for eternity. I find that particularily disturbing, as this could be seen as buying ones way into heaven. 6. Requirement to wear church approved underwear night and day, conditioned to believe they possess special protections. Another possible design to control behavior and mind set via exclusivity. 7. Strict tithing requirements. Yearly face to face confrontation with a high church authority to declare to him (as the lord’s representative) how much money the member was able to give to the church. In addition to monetary contribution, members are encouraged to give everything that the lord blesses you with even ones time and talents to the building up of the LDS church. This is a type of tithe on ones life. In addition to tithes, generous fast offerings are encouraged. Giving to other charities or worthy causes outside the church is heavily discouraged. The member intuitively knows that the tithing, fast offering, missionary funds and perpetual education funds must be donated to first... and only THEN should outside charities be considered. This type of cult characteristic, to me, falls under extreme duress to give only to the church organization. The member is even told that if the tithing is not "honest" they will literally be burned alive from the fires at Jesus' second coming. 8. Outsiders not permitted to enter the temple once it has been dedicated to Jesus. More exclusivity. 9. Most members believe Jesus literally walks the halls of the Mormon temples and no other buildings on earth receive this privilege. Mormon temples are considered to literally be Jesus' houses on this earth, The Houses of The Lord. There is only Faith promoting rumors to back this up of course. Yet it is a very strong and widely held belief in the church that this is so. More substance to "Our Mormon Church is the Only True Church". 10. There is a polarized Us vs. Them mentality. The LDS testimony conditions members to “know” based on feelings that they are the only ones on earth with the Truth or approved plan of God. Everyone else is wrong and must be saved or baptized into the LDS church. This doctrine goes as far as to maintain that every living human who has ever lived in this earth must be baptized. Even posthumously. While logically impossible, the doctrine is widely believed. God will figure it out. This rationality is supposed to support this impossibility 11. LDS church probably has more evidence to prove it false than it does to prove it true, yet members who delve into this and remain faithful to Mormonism see this "contra" evidence as a test of faith and God’s way of strengthening his "Elect". Members have been conditioned to never look at naysaying apostate material. This is very similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses and Moonie approach that outside information is evil and falls under satanic origins. Anything that could potentially deprogram a JW or Moonie is satanic as it leads that person away from God and ultimately places ones very eternal soul in peril. Family members, spouses, newspaper articles, radio... and ESPECIALLY the internet are all to be used carefully in protection of one's testimony. 12. Members are encouraged strongly to never look at “anti” literature. Yet early apostles encouraged the discovery of truth and preached openly that truth would stand up to highest degree of scrutiny. This was before damning evidences to the church's platform of ideology was widely known or even challenged. During this era, the church had a sense of infallibility as the saints were securely sequestered in the desert of Utah. Completely isolated from the outside world. 13. Bishop interviews are obsessed with sexual purity for the youth & missionaries. Young people are routinely screened several times a year on a one on one basis for participation in masturbation acts. Masturbation is seen as a chief detractor for spiritual growth. These screenings or "interviews" are conducted by a grown man holding Mormon authority. This happens in a closed room with all young males and females starting at age 13. Young people must disclose any sexual acts, even minor ones. This young person (male or female) believes they are talking to Jesus Christ's representative in these interviews. Lying to the bishop is equated to lying to Jesus. Adults have been told which sexual acts are permissible and which are not. Though, this is not consistent throughout the church. 14. Missions are extreme examples of Cult experience. A. 80 hrs a week free labor (Missionary makes no money) in fact the missionary pays largely for his own meals, lodging, transportation and clothing out of his own pocket. The missionary is told that the 2 years in service is a "tithing" of the first 19 years of his life that God gave him/her. B. When not working in field one is encouraged to read scripture & pray constantly. Other approved activities are studying and mastering more effective conversion tactics. Role playing is done to become conversant in how to defend the Mormon faith in all aspects. C. High amounts of self-indoctrination and mass indoctrination at zone and district meetings. Guilt tactics are known to be used. If low recruit numbers are happening, the missionary is frequently blamed for not working hard enough. Reasons for low recruit numbers are tied to unlikely reasons such as a lack of focal dedication or commitment to mission rules or even a suggestion that too many missionaries were masturbating too frequently in the past month. I find this to be a gross abuse of mind control. D. Encouraged to frequently recite scripture and hymns, carry a prayer in ones heart at all times so as to fortify ones efforts to keep rules, remain "sanctified to the cause" and not have impure thoughts or masturbate. Missionaries are encouraged constantly to "cleanse the inner vessle" because impure "vessels" are ineffective conduits for the spirit of the Lord to reach potential recruits. I found that doctrine to be a gross abuse of the mind. No matter what the missionary did or did not do, he could always be blamed for his lack of success. Euphoria often came to the successful missionary. Baptisms gave the missionary "signs" that his efforts were being rewarded by God. Missionaries who did not baptise on their missions often experience significant degrees of frustrating introspective moments. Many become depressed. Especially when that missionary believes they are following the rules and regulations. They feel like God is not rewarding their diligence for a reason and may seek out more complicated ways to be more obedient. E. No outside media influences, no TV, no radio. Ever. Not even newspapers. F. Must always be with companion except for showers and toilet G. Confined to one area in the city, not permitted to go outside geographic boundaries. Ever. Unless a missionary conference (a type of spiritual rally) is scheduled. This travel requires permission. H. Extremely limited contact with family is strictly controlled, letters once a week, no phone call home but twice a year on Christmas and Mother's day. I. Primary job is to recruit new members, give the prospect sanitized "milk" doctrines only and NO meat doctrine. Deception (by only telling the rewritten version of the church's history and doctrine) is encouraged most often without the missionary NOT knowing he is testifying to untruths. If the missionary has not come to grips that he "knows" that the Mormon church is the only True Church on the face of the earth, he is encouraged to testify to new potential recruits regardless and that he will eventually feel some feeling that will tell him that the Mormon church is indeed the Only True Church of God. This could be an example of self-indoctrination technique found in many One and Only True Churches. I have numerous examples. J. Every person met is sized up as potential recruit,.. and relationships are discarded or severed when the individual proves he is not interested in joining. This is jusitifed with a mind set that "The Field (the missionary's city) is ripe, all ready to harvest". Each missionary generally has an urgency to find the souls that they "know" god is preparing for them to convert. K. Current members are badgered for referrals for new recruits, friends and neighbors L. Loaded language and Mormon specific acronyms abound. The mission has a similar structure to rigid military chain of command. Missionaries place themselves in subordination accordingly. Obedience is stressed as the pinnacle and paramount objective. If one is not a successful missionary, he is told he is likely not obedient enough. Missionaries are required to carry with them at all times, in their front left shirt pocket a white 3 inch by 3 inch copy of missionary regulations and rules. This mini pocket book is called "The White Bible". Missionaries are supposed to read it once a month at least. M. Missionaries are required to write a letter to the Mission president every week without fail. They are encouraged to report any abuse or out of step activity by their mission companion. They are supposed to divulge their inner most thoughts and report on personal progress towards goals set with this president. If the missionary is found to masturbate, he is required to discuss his failings or successes (abstainment) with this topic in the letter. 15. If one ever leaves the church, they are told and conditioned to think they will be sent to outer darkness in the afterlife. There is a fear of imminent damnation if they leave the group. 16. One man (the prophet figure) speaks for God. Members see this as extremely positive as they believe the prophet will never lead them astray. When confronted that prior prophets in history have been wrong or even preached harmful doctrine that was widely held up as God's word (racial discrimination) the member quickly dismisses this. This is supported by the perceived good works the church produces and the notion that Mormonism produces good people and strong families. Subject: Additional thoughts, Why LDS church not considered a "destructive" cult... Date: Jan 19 18:11 Author: Noggin After posting my thoughts, I have been thinking as to why the LDS church is not considered a destructive cult. I can only come up with this: It must be the family aspect of the church. Destructive cults like the Moonies, The Way, People's temple recruit individuals and isolate them from family, friends etc. The LDS church is not like this per se. I can see the reaction from nonmember families who have a child join the LDS church. They would likely see their child joining a Moonie type cult. There is no getting around that. But for the multi generational Mormon family, the destructive cult personality is merely a "way of life". Uncle Larry and Aunt Millie are all Mormon. Everyone is also Mormon in this familial environment... The church does promote family values and unity. No one can deny that the family is paramount within the church. I know, there are many here that would dispute the church's fame for family values... for some of the following reasons: 1. The parents are kept busy all week with various callings and assignments (home/visiting teaching, callings, service assignments, Cannery, sugar beet farm, chicken farm or any other LDS owned business service, cleaning the chapel, moving entire households w/ furniture in and out of the ward, visiting the sick). Some of these items are not in and of themselves bad things. I believe in serving outside of ones self. But the implication that these items are required and the guilt associated with NOT doing them or turning down an opportunity to do them is what I consider cult like. There should be no guilt. Anyhow. Guilt does abound in the church in excessive amounts. Hence the stats for Prozac type drugs in Utah are excessively high. Bottom line if the parents are busy being bishops and relief society presidents the kids get left on the back burner. This is most unfortunate. This was my experience growing up. 2. Sexual abuse has happened in the church, and in LDS families. Thus a black mark could be assigned to the church on this alone. I am not sure how far above average occurrence this abuse is happening. I don't deny it happens but the question could be is the LDS church more guilty than normal. Caveat. I am not saying sex abuse is normal. I abhor sex abuse. I think I am clear as to what I am saying. Definitely, sex abuse negates the family values. 3. Families are Forever yet if one of your family members leaves the church or becomes wayward, there is a definite tendency for the still devout Mormon portion of the family to shun the "straying" family member. This is hypocritical even though article of faith #10 says [Mormons] believe that all can worship however they please. Such intolerance and hypocrisy puts into question the true groupthink of Mormon family values. There are many more reasons I am sure. I am just trying to display an open approach to this. So I guess while not necessarily a destructive cult, what I am concluding is that it is a Cult... for the entire family. Thoughts and comments appreciated Noggin

3

As a struggling JW, how easy was it to dismiss the Mormonism Truth claim?

by Noggin in

i am running into a few people on this board who are really struggling with trying to leave the jehovah's witnesses.

i want to post a question that might be beneficial.

if you struggled with leaving the jehovah's witnesses, why didn't you struggle with the mormon exclusivity claim?

Noggin

I am running into a few people on this board who are really struggling with trying to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses. I want to post a question that might be beneficial.

If you struggled with leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses, why didn't you struggle with the Mormon exclusivity claim? If you do not know about Mormonism, the founder, Joseph Smith claims to have seen god in 1820. In Smith's own words:

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them..."

This is the core basis of testimony for millions of devout Mormons. They will not tell you that they think they have God's truth, they know that they have it. And they know that all other religions are in error. Did you or Do you struggle with that? I assume that you do not.

As a devout Mormon up until 2 years ago, I never agonized over the JW's claim that they were the only true church. Why? And why don't JW's agonize over Mormonism? That is a great question. It has much to do with indoctrination.

I can tell you that there is huge agonizing going on in most ex Mormon minds upon contemplating leaving Mormonism. Major confliction, major fear about what it means to be cut off from the Mormon god if they leave. There are huge hesitations. It takes many ex Mormons years of studying the flaws in order to finally disassociate enough to the point where they can break free. Years of research, pouring over books and documents fighting of the cognitive dissonance time and again.

Yet, will you so casually disregard Mormonism? You should. And you should reverse the logic and apply it to the Jehovah's Witnesses. You should be able to dismiss the Jehovah's Witnesses truth claim as easily as I do.

This might help a few currently struggling JW's with some inkling of perspective. If this is not helpful, I am interested as to why.

Noggin

51

I realize people hear lack faith, Can't change them, but may this will help

by jw in

the apostle paul told the christians in the ancient city of philippi: "this is what i continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment.

philippians 1:9

similarly, accurate knowledge is needed for you to be motivated to believe in god.

Noggin

Seatlenice guy writes:

It always kind of amazes me when religious people seem to think that quoting scripture is going to induce belief, as if the words were some kind of magical spell. Let me ask you this, jw, if I quoted the Koran to you, would you switch to that belief? What if it was a really neat passage? What if the passage said that people who don't believe would die? Wouldn't that be incentive to believe? What if the guy quoting it to you was 110% sincerely convinced that he was right?

Well! I have just the quote that might fit this bill from the Qua'ran, here let me go retrieve it:

Qur'an 22:19-23 "These twain (as in the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve [Allah of Islam], garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads... their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: 'Taste the doom of burning'. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

Now that is just precious. I get teary eyed reading it. I believe that Muhammed was 110% sincere when he wrote this... er... excuse me, when he wrote down what the Angel Gabriel told him to write. JW, please reconsider the genesis of your faith. It is no more or no less true than Islam, Mormonism or even the local snake handler cult in Alabama. Noggin Noggin

17

Pharisees!

by Good Girl or Bad Girl? in

i'm sure this kind of thing has been discussed before, but who here thinks the elders remind them of the pharisees with their guidelines strict rules?

like the length of a slit in your skirt, or no sideburns on men or no beards, or men can't dye their hair, or no colored dress shirts or suits on the "brothers".

they would say these were guidelines but then take your "privileges" away if you didn't comply.

Noggin

Right off the bat I read about a child getting "counseled" over his hair not being styled correctly and I cringe. I had that only I was age 19 through 21 as a Mormon missionary. Length of hair, what underwear I wore, never allowed to be alone, ever. Constant scripture reading and memorization and singing hymns. That was 2 years of Pharisee boot camp. But I loved it though. I can't deny it. I loved the structure, the reward. I was conditioned from day one to long to go on a mission.

I am interested in this thread to gain more of an insight as to what degree of control is foisted upon the JW membership. Small, large, whatever. More basis for comparison. It's refreshing to see another group of people are dealing with such similar issues.

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

Qcmbr wrote:

Each believer in religion faces a similar test with one important exception - there is a lot more at stake than presents and getting it wrong has a tremendous personal cost (and depending upon where we think we are in the test is to what we think the cost is.)

I am glad you responded, Qcmbr. I have to say that for me, it came down to whether or not I could trust Joseph Smith. How reliable was he? Would I pledge a lifetime commitment to his ideology if he were the current prophet today doing the types of things he did back in the 19th century? Could he really translate ancient documents? Why is the Book of Abraham controversial? What does that say about Joseph Smith? What was the depth and breadth of the polygamy movement? Did Smith ever lie about that? Did he really start a bank (in the name of the lord) on speculative circumstances that caused many of the early saints to lose their life savings? Did he really require the saints to turn in the deeds of their properties in Nauvoo and then later sell it all off for himself at absorbant profits?

There was the primer. It took 7 years of anguishing study pouring over documents and literature. These past two final years I concentrated soley on Mormon church produced materials like Journal of Discourses, Book of Abraham and D&C 132 for starters. The Millenial Star and history of the church was insightful too. There is enough there to cause the solid questions to emerge but one has to be willing to see that the Mormon church has not been forthright with their depiction of their history.

For me, it also came down to this:

A) If the Mormon church was not true, would I want to know it (I would but some, like my devout wife do not wish to know)

B) If the Mormon church was not true, HOW would I know it?

Certainly not from lapping up every sacrament meeting talk or home teaching visit. I am horrified with the amount of grossly misrepresented historicals getting burped up over the pulpit practically each time I attend. I would also not know it from what the church broadcasts in general conference twice a year. That is completely sanitized. I'll leave it at that. I am not here to convince you in any way shape or form. Just offering my deconversion world up for public consumption. The parallels between Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are so similar in the deconversion process!

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

Rev Moon

Do you do that often? Assume that all speak french? That's new. Or maybe I missed that everyone but me speaks french here. Pero, quizas Ud. no habla engles y esto es la unica manera de que Ud. puede comunicarse con esta forum. No importa. Que tenga un buen dia.

Yeah, that probably didn't help... uh, I hope you weren't cryptically calling me a horses patoot

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

Hi there!

So, you'd like more info... I can do that! Most of what I have been through is on my website at www.mrr1968.com. Please, if you stop by feel free to sign the guest book at the top left hand of the main page.

I jettisoned the concept of religion down the rabbit hole of discovery. I do not wish to offend the theists on this board so I say that though I might cordially challenge the existence of a god, or give license that a god may exist as in a remote possibility, I personally do not believe in any god. I am part secular humanist. I am mostly a non theist... and **fingernails on the chalkboard** a soft atheist. But definately not agnostic. I used to be an "agnostic atheist" but that was too nambsy pambsy. I am on my first year as a non theist. After going full tilt with the full monty atheist suit on, I found that it appeared to be kind of just as dogmatic as the theist suit so I backed off.

I am married to a devout Mormon. So this backing off has served our household well. I do not know if there is one god or three gods or if the god concept is comprised of a 14 billion year old three lined algorithm that has set things in motion but since long expired. I have shirked the controlling tactics and am happier than I have ever been.

Genesis asked:

1- Do your study on religions (and cults) worthed it ? It seemed to be very interesting (especially in non Judeo Christian faith like Eckankar and Scientology).

I had to do that. I had to study the top One and Only True Religions of the world. See, it's that old BS detector. It was so easy for me to see that the JW's were controlling it's general membership. I easily dismissed this religion as bunk. Yet I struggled so terribly, I even agonized over the doom that awaited me if I left Mormonism. Studying the other religions and rubbing shoulders with them and having them laugh easily about the Truth claims of Mormonism made it easier for me to see the bigger picture of how mind control really works. They all so easily dismissed Mormonism. Without even a care. And here I was angstifying over it. Then I noted how angstified some of the fence sitting JW's were about leaving the WTS. Such confliction! Just like ME with Mormonism! It was a HUGE eye opener.

My most recent foray was Scientology. I attended a meeting and did everything except go into a group auditing session. That experience is on my website under "My brush with other religions". It was mind blowing to see these people so wrapped up in the Scientology dogma. I am sure it works for them. It did not work for me. Investigating other religions provided the stark contrast I needed to finally exit. It took me 7 years off and on.

2-You seemed to still believe things that you have gathered from numerous cults (like Astral Projections and Astral travels), how do you put all that in one explanation ?

When I studied with Eckankar, I read many books, and met privately with a 5th level initiate (that's kind of high up). I did their HU chant over and over in an attempt to tap into the sound and light current, and even tried to leave my body. I had an experience real enough to convince me that they probably do believe that they travel outside their bodies. In fact, many ex-Eckists who leave Eckankar become staunch Christians and never deny that they left their bodies in meditation. They just put the Christian spin on it that whoever leads them around as their spirit guides on the astral plane is not a enlightened holy being as the Eck says... but truly a devil. I also have read a few scientific journals that are now delving into the various parts of the brain. When certain parts are physically prodded or poked or bathed in certain chemicals, the patient reports out of body experiences.

Pretty interesting. It neither proves or disproves any religion to me though.

3- Are you now an atheist or you still believe in something higher ?

I still attend the Mormon church about twice a month with my devout wife. I do not partake in any ritual or sustaining votes of officers. I do not wear a tie anymore. I attend the first hour and leave. I try to be cordial and friendly but I wish to not associate with them past that. It has been engrained in me from birth that there is a higher power. I can't help but recognize the possibility that something more intelligent could have very well created me. When I go to the church with my wife I try to feel reverence for that possibility. It doesn't kill me to do it. However, I will not allow myself to worship it. I think it is a good idea to engage in introspection a couple times a month about one's place in the Universe. I use this time to do that. Plus it gives my wife the satisfaction of having a family church experience a couple times a month (we have two small children).

Qcmbr wrote:

What do you believe now? Do you reject all the supposed truth of Mormonism or just parts of it?

I reject all of Mormonism. I no longer even try the soft approach in trying to see the "good fruit" on the Mormon tree. It is a social virus. My kids will read the best books and I will engage them in thought provoking questions about life and existential matters. I want them to grow up tolerant of other religions, but to have a healthy grounding to reality. If in the end they choose to worship as their mother does, I hope that I will have behaved in such a manner that our relationship will not be compromised. They are everything to me. I hope that answered your question Qcmbr?

Noggin

20

How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism

by Noggin in

i used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that i knew the mormon church was god's only true church on the face of the earth.

i used to be made up of a highly

polarized mormon mind set

Noggin

I used to be able to state, with clear emphasis... and a straight face, that I KNEW the Mormon Church was God's ONLY true church on the face of the earth. I used to be made up of a highly Polarized Mormon Mind Set . I knew what I knew, but how did I know it? Turns out that my premise was extremely tenuous and unproven. It is amazing the level of confidence one can achieve from such unproven and unreliable context. As a Mormon missionary, I asserted to literally thousands in Europe that Mormonism was God's only true church. I have long suspected that the faith taught to me was not all that it was cracked up to be. My doubts started to increase to unavoidable levels about 10 years ago. In truth, my suspicions started in the midsts of my early Mormon Seminary experience when I encountered some pretty strange doctrines and inconsistencies within the Mormon structure. However, I was taught that The Spirit was the Testifier of ALL truth. I was taught that if I felt good when I prayed, nothing else mattered. This feeling was testifying to me that Mormonism was The Truth. I became confused when I would talk to my religious friends of other faiths who also felt "The Spirit" at their churches. I rationalized this to mean that they only had "part" of God's Truth but that Mormons had "All" of it. That worked for years but left me wanting. I embarked on a Mormon 2 year mission to Spain, Barcelona. In Spain I encountered all kinds of religions. Roman Catholics, Baha'I, Spiritualists, Kabbalists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostals... it was fantastic. I recall one experience in particular where my companion and I thumped bibles with Pedro the Jehovah's Witness. We walked away from our discussions that took place over three different days quite perplexed... at least... I was. Clash of the Titan Ideologies: Pedro was just as convinced he had God's Truth as I was. There was no mistaking it. He called me on the carpet. I was in error according to him. He discussed the concepts of Paradise and also JW Armageddon with me and my missionary companion. He told me that I was wrong about God. I showed him passage after passage where he was wrong. We were at complete loggerheads. Thus began my fascination with religious ideology. I have always remained intrigued, to my religious undoing, as to how people believe what they believe. So we parted ways with Pedro, the Jehoavah's Witness. We had testified through the power of the Spirit that Joseph Smith was God's prophet who restored God's church on earth in our day. Pedro had rejected this firmly. We walked away satsfied that we had done our Mormon duty in warning Pedro. We knew that he would one day stand before God and be accountable for his rejection of our message that day. I distinctly recall joking with my missionary companion about an uncomfortable "what if" scenario. What if, like, when we died and went to stand for judgement before God, we stood there before him and God sadly looked at us. What if he called Pedro to our tribunal? Pedro, did you not explain to Noggin and his companion that the watchtower society was my truth? Yes, God, I did. Noggin, did you accept the message from my servant, Pedro? No, God, I did not. I am sorry, Noggin, you will not qualify for heaven. You chose to follow Joseph Smith. Oh we had a good laugh about that. My missionary companion and I laughed and laughed. A hearty guffaw. So convinced were we that Mormons had the truth that it never entered our minds that our basis for Truth was just as sketchy as Pedro's. We further imagined how angry we would be with God for deceiving us. But no, God did give us a chance... did he not? He did send Pedro to witness of the Truth. Each time I encountered another Jehovah's Witness with a different missionary companion I would run the same scenario by him and we would have the same hearty guffaw. I never forgot that scenario. In later years it served me well to start fostering some critical thinking skills and eventually paved the way for me to exit the faith of Mormonism. I am now out. I am free from any religion. Thanks, Pedro, wherever you are. Noggin

17

What did you seek to acccomplish going door to door?

by Noggin in

i am back.

this time i won't lead you to what i want to hear.

promise.

Noggin

As a former Mormon, I spent 2 years full time doing something similar to the JW field service as a missionary. It was awkward wearing the black badge of "Elder" as a 19 year old kid running amuck in the streets of Spain pestering people. I hear you guys. It was rough. If I had to do that every week starting as a youngster... ugh.

Thanks for the great responses. I am amazed that so many get out and actually do it. It appears that many don't find "joy" in it. But then again, were I to ask a devout JW if he enjoyed field service, he wouldn't likely give me a negative response... even if he truly despised it. I am sure that in order to continue doing it week in and week out a certain positive attitude would have to be continually fostered.

Noggin

17

What did you seek to acccomplish going door to door?

by Noggin in

i am back.

this time i won't lead you to what i want to hear.

promise.

Noggin

I am back

This time I won't lead you to what I want to hear. Promise.

Is the reason the JW's go door to door to find converts?

What do they hope to accomplish by going door to door-- best case scenario? A new convert? a book sale? a chance to roar like a lion about the JW bible?

**cringing** Is there any mystical force that you employed while engaging in non JW's about the bible?

Did you ever felt impressed by Jehovah's spirit to go down a different street than the one you were about to because someone there needed to hear your message? Did you ever feel "guided" to someone's door?

Noggin