dickelentz

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Posts by dickelentz

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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

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  dickelentz

  Sounds like a reasonable approach. How do we set one up?
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

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  dickelentz

  I did one of the things you asked me to do. I cruised around the different forums to see what kind of "fundamentist" issues are being discussed or have influenced the comments posted.

  I've concluded that if the observations you and others make about God and the Bible are correct, that God is indeed some kind of ogre or tyrant, then it is reasonable to reject God as well as the Bible. Based on this, no amount of evidence would drive you or others to accept the Bible as the word of God. In fact, I would agree that your decision in this case would be both logical and wise. I wouldn't want a relationship with a god who is a tyrant, and wouldn't expect you to want want either. No amount of "proof" would convince us to make a different decision in this case.

  I just happen to view the Bible as well as God differently. I've read the same passages you and others cite but don't necessarily draw the same conclusion about what they mean or what they say about God. But for me to explain what I think about them as well as what I wrote in my play, I need to put my understanding of these passages into the context of what I understand about God and what He's communicated through the Bible. Only by explaining what I believe to be the core message of the Bible can I succeed in answering your other questions.

  So, Dedalus, if you or others would like to continue this discussion, I can write more. I would truly like to put some other issues on the table to see what you think as well as to perhaps answer some of the questions you posed earlier.

  So, are you or others game?.....................
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  dickelentz

  On a lighter topic, ever watch "Red and Green"? If so, what do you think of it?
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dickelentz

  This was not a cut-and-paste error, if that is what you are suggesting. I'm acknowledging some things that I think you and I agree upon. Hopefully this can serve as a common point for further discussion.

  I agree that you will find many places in the Bible that talk about the depths of sin that even God's "chosen people" can fall into. A fair question is "Where was God when all this was happening?" If you wish me to answer this I can.

  Another of my points is this. Depraved or oppressive forms of religion are false expressions of what God is really like. Those exposed to these types of religions often get a tainted picture of what God is really like and frequently have little good to say about "religion" and especially "christianity" in general.

  But I don't believe that God is either depraved or oppressive. I also believe that God has revealed his true and loving nature in the Bible. Unfortunately, our bad experiences with "religion" often keep us from seeing what God wants to reveal to us about himself.

  Is is possible for us to work around these distortions that some religions create about God's true nature so that we discuss what God is really like?
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dickelentz

  Dedalus,

  I re-read some of your posts as well as mine. I also tried to sense what others have been saying in general.

  You are right. I haven't answered your questions. And they do deserve an answer. I believe the questions to be fair, and ones that many have asked.

  Since I see the Bible in perhaps a different light than you do, the events of the old testament do not trouble me as much as they do you. It may be that I'm missing something. It also may be that the context in which I understand them leads me to a different conclusion about them.

  Some of the things you've mentioned are not examples of behaviors God approves of. For example, there are many examples in the book of Judges that exemplify the extent to which sinful men fall away from God. The sins that the people of Israel committed got progressively worse. But the book points out that the cause of their behaviour was their rejection of God. Because of their rejection of God, their lives and their society grew progressively worse. In the end (as the last verse in Judges states), "there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in their own eyes."

  Many of the events you have issues with can be found in the book of Judges. In addition, you will find examples of child sacrifice, brutal murders, incest, and rape.

  But the moral of the story is not "you must try harder or else....". It's really "here's the depths that SOME may fall to when they turn their backs on God." The Jews were God's chosen people. Yet they had fallen so far away from God that in some ways they were worse than the nations that surrounded him.

  They were not far different than what some have done today in the name of God. You are absolutely right about that as well. There are some who call themselves Christians who have done despicable things in the name of God.

  Many religions have taken these stories and used them to fashion a tyrannical form of religion made up of a list of oppressive rules used to control people rather than help them out. These religions mistakenly think that if they come up with the right set of rules, they can someone gain God's favor. The problem is that is just doesn't work. In fact, God NEVER intended our relationship with Him to be based on a set of rules.

  The "core" message of the Bible is that no good thing we do can get us any closer to God. It would be like trying to swim from California to Hawaii. You may be able to get part of the way. But everyone would eventually drown.

  The "core" message of the Bible is about God's love. He wants a relationship with us and provided a means to "mend the fence" so to speak. When Jesus died on the cross, he paid the penalty for our sin. God no longer holds my sin against us, because Jesus took the punishment for us on the Cross.

  Unfortunately, most religions simply don't "get it". Most teach a warped view of God that presents him as an oppressive being just waiting to lash out at those who cross Him up. The God I see in the Bible is nothing like this. He wants to have a personal relationship with us, and has communicated in the Bible the means to that relationship.

  I realize that this doesn't answer all your questions, but hopefully it is a starting point.

  I do appreciate this forum and I don't mind continuing the discussion if it can be fruitful. I certainly cannot answer all your questions but will make an attempt to respond if I feel I reasonably can.
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dickelentz

  Your questions are fair. What evidence do I offer of God's existence? And why don't I answer your other questions?

  First, I can only give minimal evidence in such a limited forum such as this. That's why I referred you to Josh McDowell's books. He has done a thorough investigation of the rational basis for believing in God and in Christianity. Some of his books are "short". So if 750 pages is too much for you, there are others that give more of a summary of what he discovered. I recommend the longer version for the serious student as it is heavily footnoted and the sources can therefore be independently verified. But the shorter books serve well in a pinch.

  Paul Little has also written similar books about the same subject that are less intense but nevertheless informative.

  The interesting thing about McDowell is he came at the issue as an atheist trying to disprove the historical accuracy of the Bible. He concluded that the historical evidence overwelmingly proves otherwise. If you are really looking for "proof" and not just arguing a point, these books provide a much more thorough look at the issue than I'm capable of doing in such a limited forum.

  Regarding your other questions about God and the Bible, my answers can only be given in the context of what the Bible communicates as a whole. As I teacher, I frequently don't answer questions directly. My method is to develop a context for the issue so that the question can be answered in light of that overall context. My goal is to point people to where they can find answers, not give them all the answers.

  This is especially important in biblical studies when more often than not issues are taken "out of context" and end up driving religious values that have very little to do with God's nature or his will for our lives. My goal has always been to drive people towards the "core" teachings of the Bible. Once the "core" is understood, the rest becomes more clear.

  I've outlined some of this "core" teaching in my other posts here. It has to do with Jesus and his life, death and resurrection. Everything else in the Bible revolves around this "core" event and either points to it or is driven by it. Without a clear understanding of who Jesus is, why He came to earth, and what He accomplished by dieing on the Cross, the rest of the Bible makes little sense.

  Your questions cannot be answered outside of this "core" context. For without this context, my answers would neither make sense nor soften your anger with Christian beliefs.

  If you are interested in knowing more about the "core" context of the Bible and how it ties the whole Bible together, I can continue to post on this site and discuss some things I've learned about God and the Bible over my years of study. In the process, the questions you pose can be addressed within the context of the Bible as a whole.

  Of course, if you really don't want answers and are just looking for an argument, then perhaps it's better to part our ways.
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dickelentz

  You once again pose some good questions. I have studied the Bible for about 30 years. I also teach and write bible studies for adults. I have read many other books on philosophy and religion as well as books on evolution and creationism. I also recently spent a lot of time studying the Koran to see what the other third of the world thinks.

  Being a rational person, I accept very little that is not logical and reasonable. My conclusion based on the evidence presented is that the existence of God is both rational and logical. Furthermore, Jesus life, death, and resurrection is a matter of historical record. There are some who may dispute the records. But an objective look at the historical documentation of this event gives ample evidence of the historical accuracy of the Bible.

  Can I prove any of this to you? No. Jesus once said "even if a man rises from the dead, they will not believe". He did, and most didn't. For those who have already drawn their conclusions, no amount evidence will sway their opinions. But for those who are searching for God and the truth about him, the evidence is there for their examination and their evaluation. God will show himself to those who sincerely seek him.

  Josh McDowell (who once was an atheist himself) explores the objectivity of Christianity in several of his books including "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". He does a far better job then I could presenting facts that support the rational basis for belief in God and in the Bible. If you a truly interested in seeing an objective look at the other side, then get the book, read it, and then discuss your conclusions.

  Regarding your other questions, I could give you answers. But I think it's time to ask some questions of my own. I believe I have been fair and straightforward with you in responding to your issues even though you may disagree with my answers. Would it not be fair if I asked some questions of my own and got your response?

  So, unless you intended this to simply be a one-sided discussion, here's some things I'd like to know about you:

  1. If a person could provide evidence that God existed, what evidence would you accept as "proof"?

  2. What is your specific complaint about your fundamentalist upbringing? What specifically turned you "off" about Christianity and moved you in the direction of becoming an atheist?

  You may respond to my e-mail address if you find you don't wish to share your answers in this forum.
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dickelentz

  To clarify a couple issues, let me explain.

  First, the play was not based on Cassie Bernall's life story at all. The development of the play began within a few days after the Columbine tragedy with the awareness that at least one of the victims (Rachel Scott) was a Christian and that she had actively shared her testimony with others at her school.

  Secondly, many different groups used the Columbine tragedy as a means to discuss problems in society in general. Some focused on the need for gun control, some on the affects of peer criticism and bullys in high schools, and some on the failures of social programs to reach troubled youth. I took the view that the killers relationship with God was an important factor in what ultimately happened. If this makes me guilty of "vampirism", so be it. But I accept this label only to the same degree as others who looked at the Columbine tragedy and tried to make some sense about why it happened.

  The cause of this tragedy was complex. It was a combination of circumstances and decisions that ultimately culminated in two teen-agers taking out their anger on their school mates. There's is no one thing we can point to and say "this is what caused it to happen". It was a variety of things.

  I chose to look at the tragedy from a spiritual point of view. I felt that if the killers had trusted God to help them with the problems they faced and then listened to God as He guided them, they would have acted differently. As I said before, all murders are the result of rejection of God. That is because God cherishes all life and desires that we cherish life just as much as He does. Murder is an example of what happens when a person turns their back on God and the things that God values. The killers reacted as they did not because they didn't believe God existed, but because they turned their backs on God and the help He offered them.

  Someone asked about truth. The truth is this: God does exist. He also loves us. He wants to have a relationship with us that results in a fulfilling life. He also wants us to spend eternity with Him.

  The problem is that we are imperfect. The Bible calls this sin. This sin separates us from God. This separation keeps us from experiencing the fullness of life God wants for us. But what's worse, if we die separated from God, we will live eternally apart from Him.

  Because God loves us, He did something to restore our broken relationship with Him. God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin. God accepts Jesus' sacrifice as "compensation" for our imperfections and our sin. I am redeemed now not because of something I've done to earn God's favor, but because Jesus died for me on the Cross.

  By the way, this is not true because I believe it. I believe it because it's true. I've read many books that have tried to discount what happened 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. But an objective look at the historical evidence validates that Jesus existed, that he claimed to be the son of God, that He died on a cross, and that He rose from the dead. These facts and these facts alone validate that Jesus is the only means to bring us back to God and redeem us from our fallen natures.

  So that's what the play is about. Not about "Cassie" or about "atheists" or about "christians". It real focus is on the choices we all make about God, the consequences for the choice that at least one person ("Jason") made about God, and ultimately the eternal consequence of accepting or rejecting the salvation that God offers to everyone of us.
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dickelentz

  You all make some very good and perhaps valid points. But remember that any discussion, if is to be of use, should be based on facts, not speculation.

  Those who accuse the play of singling out atheists have undoubtedly neither read nor seen the play. "Jason" was not an atheist nor a non-believer. He in fact did accept that God existed. What he did was reject God's solution for his problems in life. Instead of deciding to trust God with his life, he turned his back on God and gave into his anger and frustration.

  It is true that many people who call themselves Christian have committed heinous crimes in the name of God. Those who call themselves "christian" and violate God's principles in this fashion are christian in name only and do not reflect God's will nor God's nature. Unfortunately, too many of these types of things have occurred in our history leaving many with a bad taste in their mouth about Christians in general. All we can do is ask what you would request from us in return: that we not be judged by the actions of those who have abused God's truth any more than you would ask us not to judge "athesists" by the actions or mis-statements of a few.

  What can be stated truthfully about christians and non-christians alike is this: Anyone who murders someone else is not doing God's will and has rejected God's truth. The play presents this truth, not as a condemnation of atheism or of non-believers, but as showing the link between the tragedy and Jason's rejection of God.

  Rejecting God does not normally lead to murder. But all murders are the result of rejecting God as well as God's will for our lives.
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  80

  A sickening example of religious vampirism

  by expatbrit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

  the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

  mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dickelentz

  As the author of the play, perhaps I can address some of your comments and questions.

  "It's Not Too Late" does not portray life as "christians vs atheists". In fact, the play points out that we're all imperfect. There is not one person that can call themselves rightious. We are all fallen creatures that fall quite short of God's standards. God does not condemn us for our sin but rather offers redemption from our fallen nature.

  We have a choice about God's offer of salvation. We can accept God's love and the gift of salvation He offers. Or, we can reject it. But whatever choice we make, IT WILL AFFECT OUR LIVES. It will also affect where we spend eternity.

  The play points out very clearly that God was trying to reach out to "Jason" (the killer) to save Jason from himself. Jason's choice was to reject God and instead take his own path in life. That choice resulted in Jason giving in to his anger. Jason's anger eventually consumed him. The result was tragic.

  Even up to the last minute, Jason had a choice to take a different path in life. God continually tried to reach out to him to help him find a better way. Jason's response was to say "no" to God.

  Rejection of God doesn't often end with this type of tragedy. But rejection of God always results in separation from God. This frequently leads to difficult and somtimes tragic consequences. But what's worse, if we die separated from God, it is impossible to remedy the situation. There is no second chance. The Bible clearly teaches that if we die separated from God, we will spend eternity apart from Him.

  Fortunately, God has a remedy. Jesus' death on the cross paid the penalty for our sins. By accepting this "remedy", our relationship to God can be restored. Once restored, we will spend the rest of our lives as well as eternity with God.

  That's what the play is about. God is trying to reach out to all of us every minute of every day. We have the choice whether to accept God's love or to reject it. Whatever choice we make will affect our lives. It's too late for some to take a different path in life (Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, for example). But it's not too late for the rest of us.

  By the way, the website (hometown.aol.com/dickelentz) does have a performance history page. If you are interested in seeing the play, you'll find some links to groups performing it. It will be performed in Dublin, CA this week.

  God truly loves all of us. God is also reaching out to all of us to redeem us from the consequences of our fallen nature.