Posts by done4good

47

If someone asked you, 'Are you a righteous person'? What would be your answer?

by Esse quam videri in

what would be your answer?

are you are a righteous person?

on a scale of 1-10, how righteous do you feel you are?.

done4good

Those who do not believe in righteousness may leave. Please close the door quietly behind you.

Typical judgmental religionist attitude. I stopped reading after that. Quite "righteous"...

d4g

15

Breaking cognitive dissonance - or - how to get Bill Cosby to help a dub see the light

by undercover in

jw
friends

let me preface this by saying, i don't know if mr. cosby is guilty of all that he's being accused of.

the number of women coming out against him is pretty damning, but no real proof has been offered (that i'm aware of anyway).

and it is this circumstantial, hearsay evidence that can actually play into the hands of someone trying to get a jw to grasp the seriousness of the child abuse claims in the jw religion.. how so?.

done4good

Generally, calling someone on or pointing out areas that should cause their cognitive dissonance does not work, (immediately). The immediate response is almost always some kind of mental shut down.

Longer term though, I believe this can work. It plants a seed. Whether that seed will germinate depends on other factors outside of our control. To push beyond the seed planting phase of this, will almost certainly backfire.

If done carefully, and kept brief, I believe this approach can work long term.

d4g

64

Mind control.

by New day in

in a recent thread someone mentioned that the wtbts uses mind control techniques.

do you think this is a conscious ploy?

if it is it would mean that the leaders of my religion (i am still an active jw) set out consciously to control people.

done4good

Londo111 nailed it.

This is a matter of social evolution.

Phizzy - I think we are on the same page. I did understand the OP question, however variants of this question get asked time and again. My point is that we are largely asking the wrong question. It is a matter of stating the obvious that they know something when they do it, (such as lie). Unfortunately, for these guys, that doesn't matter because they believe they are doing so for good reason, (the end justifies the means).

If we are truly going to understand the way high control groups work, we need to understand the science(s) involved. As Londo111 points out, the organization did not develop into the high control group that it is overnight. This is a matter of evolving certain social memes that "worked", (one of which is evolving techniques used for manipulation). This is a gradual process, given the psychology involved. Looking for some silver bullet to point to as "the" control mechanism being employed, (what most folks here are asking when they ask questions such as do the GB know they are using mind control techniques), is really not possible, due to the gradual nature of its development and the nuance involved. It takes some time out to fully see this, (and also comparing the WT to other high control groups and looking for parallels), however it does become clearer over time. The R&F do it too, it just gets worse the higher one "makes" it in the org.

d4g

64

Mind control.

by New day in

in a recent thread someone mentioned that the wtbts uses mind control techniques.

do you think this is a conscious ploy?

if it is it would mean that the leaders of my religion (i am still an active jw) set out consciously to control people.

done4good

Phizzy-
When thy mis-quote completely, as in the "Trinity" Brochure, and countless Watchtower articles, of course they know they are lying.
Ray Franz and I had some very interesting conversations, in which he tried to help me on my way, his love and total honesty were natural parts of his personality, I cannot see him ever as being happy with subterfuge and half-truth even, let alone downright lying.

I would certainly agree that they know they are lying when they purposely misquote, misrepresent, etc. That is still not deliberate mind control in of itself. We need to remember that these guys believe they are the closest thing to god on earth. If they believe that hubris, they can justify any deception, misrepresentation, or even outright lies in the name of the "greater good", whatever that may be from their perspective. Hell, they have managed to manipulate themselves this way.

I have talked to Ray myself, and agree he was an honest man. However, I would argue that he would even say he was not truly exceptional. Ray was forced to resign. He continued to go to JW meetings in Alabama. He remained a JW until he was dis-fellowshipped a year and a half later. My point here is that something made him "wake up", but it was not obvious until he was completely out. It is unfair and inaccurate to state that others in leadership positions are not equally as blinded. They are indeed blinded by their own hubris. That IS the problem.

d4g

48

How is Joe Publisher reacting to all the TV coverage on the abuse cases?

by 4thgen in

please pardon if this a repeated topic.

i have had virtually no contact with any witnesses beside my mother for the past few years.

she watches tv constantly and claims she has never seen anything on the watchtower abuse cases.

done4good

JWs generally speaking:

1. Don't watch the news, much less actually read anything.

2. Would likely view anything negative concerning the organization as specious, if not outright lies.

3. IF they get passed 1 and 2, then it is usually only a short matter of time before they feel the need to relieve themselves of their cognitive dissonance, and adopt the attitude of #2. (I have seen this in action).

d4g

64

Mind control.

by New day in

in a recent thread someone mentioned that the wtbts uses mind control techniques.

do you think this is a conscious ploy?

if it is it would mean that the leaders of my religion (i am still an active jw) set out consciously to control people.

done4good

Phizzy-

To put it more bluntly, they know they are lying.

Did Ray Franz "know" he was lying while on the GB?

64

Mind control.

by New day in

in a recent thread someone mentioned that the wtbts uses mind control techniques.

do you think this is a conscious ploy?

if it is it would mean that the leaders of my religion (i am still an active jw) set out consciously to control people.

done4good

Just for clarity, I am not stating the entire effort is "subconscious". The WT has obviously learned to harness and refine their manipulative techniques quite effectively. However, to miss the point that subconscious elements are at the root of the problem, only serves to misunderstand the problem and how to deal with it correctly.There is clearly a correlation of mind control effects and JW behavior, but that does not prove causation.

Mind control is real yes, but there is no no mind control boogeyman, so stop looking for one.

d4g

64

Mind control.

by New day in

in a recent thread someone mentioned that the wtbts uses mind control techniques.

do you think this is a conscious ploy?

if it is it would mean that the leaders of my religion (i am still an active jw) set out consciously to control people.

done4good

For the most part, it is not a conscious ploy. There are no "books" on how to mind control someone, (at least in a direct and complete manner).

The JW system of belief, is by its very nature, a manipulative system. JWs are "taught" to be manipulative through years of indoctrination and through example. They are rewarded by that very system for doing so. That is how one climbs the JW corporate ladder. The GB are the most manipulated of anyone in the hierarchy, and therefore can bald face lie about anything to anyone. This serves to support their own belief, as well reinforce that belief on others.

This has everything to do with how individuals respond to existential fears. Religions by their very nature play on this inherit human quirk. The more black and white, (read fundamental), the system is, the greater the potential to become addicted to catering to one's existential fear. This is what Karl Marx was talking about referring to religion being the "Opium of the People".

How this principle applies within the context of the WT is unique, and this is where many misunderstand the nature of the leadership. The leaders have long since become addicted to catering to their own existential fear, and this is why they feel no conscious tweak from the cognitive dissonance they should be experiencing. The level of manipulation the leaders exert on the rank and file is directly proportional to the level black and white, narrow minded, fundamental belief, afforded by a eschatological religion. In other words, the world has not ended, (as we said it would), so we need to invent reasons why it has not, and make sure to control everyone's belief that it will end "soon". This is done as much to appease their own belief, as it is to control others. All they have to really "believe" is that they are god's chosen representatives, (technically the most enlightened in all the earth), and the rest takes care of itself.

d4g

70

Wife fully awake.

by cappytan in

i learned this past week that my wife is now awake.

i just shared the pbs newshour segment with her with no comment other than something along the lines of, "jw story on pbs.".

she is furious at the arrogance of these men.. thats what happens when you get a momma angry!.

done4good

Great news, Cappytan!

91

ABC's report on child abuse

by Joyzabel in

nice job!

done4good

Sir82-
JW Talk appears to be pretty somber on this:
http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/19847-abc-news-nightline-report-3122015/
Not nearly so much blaming the victim as I would have expected, although, of course, there is absolutely 0 sympathy expressed for her, either.

I dunno. That thread seems to go back and forth, from compassion and sensible discussion, to some brain dead drone spouting the company line, to the sensible and compassionate falling back into cult speak after the brain dead drones make their comments. In the end it pissed me off for sure. Not sure why I would have bothered to read a JW discussion on this subject. These people are incredibly dehumanized.

d4g