Posts by done4good

59

Introducing Myself

by Peony in

i've finally got round to joining the site (after over 2 years lurking!

i was born into jws, pioneered for 10 years (met my husband at pioneer school).

had health issues that saw me catapulted away from 'the centre of the cong' and wow what a different place that was!

The elders of the 1980s are now in their 60s and 70s

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

having just come back from the uk and spoke with some witnesses to find out how my old congregation is doing, i realized i am now the age that my elders were when i was a kid.

and i wonder what the elders who are now in their 60s and 70s are thinking when they look in the mirror and an old face looks back at them.

many of the elders in my old hall are now retired.

My experience has been that beyond a certain age, (~50), people either begin to lose interest and become more apathetic, (and sometimes end up leaving), or become much more hardcore. I believe a lot of it has to do with missed opportunities, (or what is known as the "sunk cost" fallacy), where someone that spent their lives chasing a belief at great cost to themselves, begins to feel that they have no other choice than to stay the course. They will double down on their beliefs just as the problem gambler does when nearly broke.

As a bit of an anecdote, not long after a I left, I was speaking with a JW friend that you and I both know, (he of course was trying to convince me to come back). In speaking of his father, (who was well into his 70s at the time, and an ex-elder), my friend had asked him one day if he still believed. His answer was actually quite honest. His father said that "Since I had believed this long, and lived this life this long, what else can I do?". Deep down he recognized it was probably all for naught, however at 70+ years old, could not face that reality. Very sad, and very typical of those in this age group.

d4g

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

done4good

CalebInFlorida -

Yes, completely understand cognitive dissonance is not denial. In fact, everything you state about dissonance theory is 100% correct. And yes, as in all psychology, it is a soft science, and not something all psychologists agree upon.

My point is that cognitive dissonance is almost a given amongst the thinkers of the JWs, because reality points to a universe that works very differently from the one that JWs claim to believe in. Deep down they do know this.

Their response to the cognitive dissonance is very much what you describe of your pastor friend. They actually dig their heels deeper to avoid the effects of the cognitive dissonance, at least for a period of time, and often that time period lasts years, if not decades. A person can only take so much of the conflict, so shutdown is a common response. The belief in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of that belief is just another form of mental shutdown. It is only when a person is forced into the state of cognitive dissonance to such a degree that their normal shutdown mechanisms are no longer effective, that the cognitive dissonance actually forces them to wake up.

d4g

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

done4good

Xanthippe - Sometimes I think it is the very reason that we suffered so much in the religion, because we were always questioning. You are still questioning now when you ask, why me. Those that accept things find the religion and possibly life in general easier to deal with.
If you constantly question everything your whole life it can make life quite uncomfortable. It's easier to just go along with the crowd but you obviously can't do that. It's not about being a good person it's about thinking for yourself.

This is also spot on, and realizing that "being a good person" had nothing to do with my ability to wake up and leave is exactly what made me an atheist in due time. It was about intellectual curiosity and self-honesty. These are higher level needs, (self-actualization in the Maslow sense), and many cannot get there until more basic needs are met first. Most people never get there, not just JWs.

d4g

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

done4good

CalebInFlorida - There's still debate about it, and probably always will be, but there may be a lot more free will and less brainwashing in systems like the Watchtower than people would like to believe.

Interesting point. I do think the very nature of cults in terms of what allows them to develop and thrive has to do with what I would call "collective cognitive dissonance". At some level, many, if not most deep down know they are not being told the truth, however chose to believe anyway for purposes that have much to do with lower level human needs such as security, (in the Maslow sense). Cognitive dissonance is the result of reality conflicting with what members choose to believe, to appease their own need for security. Replicate this 8 million times in aggregate, and create a system that only promotes its leadership from within, and it becomes more clear as to why what we perceive as "cult mind control", comes into play.

d4g

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

done4good

Cantleave - Sounds like you are waking up a second time, this is exactly the thought process I went through as I moved from believer to agnostic and then to atheist.

Ditto.

d4g

39

Are There Good People Out There?

by LaurenM in

even though i'm no longer mentally a jw (i still technically am) i do recognize that there are some benefits to being raised one.

for example, the first (and only so far) wordly guy i was involved with had to smoke weed every day and got drunk all the time and that was his idea of fun.

i couldn't help but feel bad for him.

done4good

This is going to sound a little bit blunt, and may introduce a certain level of discomfort. I assure you nothing but good direction is being offered, if you keep an open mind. This will require a good deal of supplemental information and experience, but is intended as a primer for what you need to know immediately after learning TTATT.

The JW version of "morality" is not morally superior to the world in general. Not at all. Period. It only appears that way for two reasons: 1. This is how it was always presented to you; and 2. Religions such as JW are very good at drawing comparison between their "morals" and the worst examples of moral failure in society. A well balanced, properly educated, conscientious person, (most of society to varying degrees), is not represented by the comparisons drawn by the WTS or any extreme religious group. As an extension of the second point, the WTS' policies prevent a person from becoming the very well educated, balanced and conscientious person they could become. This is a prime example of self-fulfilling prophesy, and precisely why many who are raised JW "go off the deep end", when they leave. The fact is they still "believe" they will fail, and as a result, they often do.

As to your point about "using mind altering substances" as the only means enjoy one's self, see points 1and 2 above. A person whose life revolves around such is probably not well educated and balanced. On the other hand, some of these substances, (such as marijuana and alcohol), can be used in moderation, when appropriate. This should be obvious, however to one raised in a very black and white environment like the JWs, it might not be, so I am pointing it out. Be careful not to let a bad choice of BF or GF on your part color your understanding of humanity in general. Give yourself time to experience life, educate yourself, and then assess what fits and what does not. This is the only way to lose the black and white thinking, and it does take some time.

d4g

31

"We don't run a spy network"

by OrphanCrow in

the wts has been keeping case files on child sex abuse for over 60 years that we know of.

*damn...my whole post disappeared.... .

the wts has been keeping case files on child sex abuse for over 60 years that we know of.

done4good

OrphanCrow-Pope Jackson said "We don't run a spy network" and..."We don't run a police state". Well...he can call it a tuna fish sandwich if he likes, but....it smells like a skunk just walked by.

Just a straw man argument used to distract and to deflect accountability away from themselves on the core issue. They have never dealt with abuse as a crime. That is the problem. Period. Most religious organizations are unaware of abuse among their members, not because of an unwillingness to report it to the authorities, but rather because there is no internal policing of members' behaviors outside of what takes place in the church directly. The WTS is different precisely because they do police behaviors, and as such are fully aware of abuse in their organization. They hide behind the law, when it does not require them to report. According to Jackson, they seem to have no problem with this. Yes, the law is flawed in many countries, (including the US), but one would think a religious organization that touts itself as having a superior moral compass would know better. WTS has no such compass, and are morally bankrupt. Jackson's own words are self-damning.

The really sad part about it, is they have no idea how morally bankrupt they appear to all onlookers in society.

d4g

37

Remember the two elderly sisters?

by John Aquila in

about a month ago i posted what had happened to two elderly sisters who were reprimanded by a couple of elders for crying because the jw broadcasting was going to be stopped at the kingdom hall and it was up to each publisher to learn how to use the internet.

if you recall the sisters got together with my mom and talked about it and it resulted in all of them declining to make meals for the pioneers.

here is the link.

done4good

That is great news.

78

I believe that the greater percentage of JWs-You Will Not Be Able to Help, no Matter What Facts You Show Them.

by John Aquila in

so i ran into this brother whom ive known for a while and the conversation led into me being invited to come back to the kingdom hall.

we talked for about an hour during which time i explained to him 607 being the wrong date and a lot of other stuff including the child abuse cases in australia.

but what i wanted to relate was the last few minutes of our conversation.

done4good

A person's religion is very much about a person's identity, if they do not necessarily need it for their hope. This is a key reason why those JWs that have more or less "normal" lives, (not the wackadoodle ones, or those with chronic problems), stay "in". Many of these type have careers, nice homes, children, possibly even a decent education. They stay in because they have a comfort zone, and part of their comfort zone is their JW identity. For these types, cognitive dissonance and rationalization rule the day. I was one before I left. They are usually apathetic however, and apathy is almost always the first step to breaking free.

You cannot force them, but don't give up on them.

d4g