Posts by done4good

128

Participate In The EX-JW Personality Test!

by C0ntr013r in

first of all; i must admit that i'm not a huge fan of putting people in boxes like this, it is not an exact science.

but i still think the data can be quite interesting and i intend to collect it and share it in a structured way with you guys.

so without future ado here are the details.. link to test: .

done4good

OneEyedJoe - INTJs are also the least likely to believe in god, which makes it hard to stay in a religious cult. In my case questioning the existence of god was easier than questioning the watchtower. Though I think the prevalence of INTJ on forums is more about the style of communication that we prefer - the wrongs of the cult are both numerous and varied enough to offend any personality.

INTJ here. What I still have a hard time with is how on earth with this personality type I managed to stay in as long as I did. Agreed, giving up belief in god was much easier once I was already out.

INTJs are over-represented on discussion forums in general, however they seem especially over-represented on ex-JW forums. That is not a mere statistical anomaly. I also read somewhere that INTJs are generally more prone to accept cognitive dissonance with less negative effects at first than most, that is until they have enough information such that intuitively they know better, and walk away from the source of the false information. Since this is generally a matter of self-honesty, someone such as an INTJ or similar NT type personality would have a very difficult time staying in and playing along once they know better. INTJs would be the most likely of any JW to leave eventually, as well as want to express and articulate those thoughts in written form, as INTJs generally like to do.

d4g

83

What woke you up?

by Israel Ricky Gonzales in

in march of 2014, i was a very active jw, a ministerial servant, gave a public talk, was an attendant for the memorial, and one of 4 cleaning captains for an international convention of 40,000+ attendees.

so what woke me up?

an innocent comment from a co-worker about the candice conti court case rang a bell that could not be unrung.

done4good

It took time, many years in fact. The formula can be summarized like this:

Education+Success+Experiencing Real World=Seeing it is all bullshit when it turns on you.

d4g

35

Cognitive Dissonance

by LexIsFree in

jw
friends

the cognitive dissonance amongst jws has never been more obvious to me then what i just experience in the last 5 min.

long story short i had a phone conversation w/my mom about some things and i mentioned to her to look up what has been going on with their beloved organization in australia.

brother geoffrey jackson of the holy governing body was caught lying numerous times about several subjects including disassociations & shunning.

done4good

Sorry, but there is no such thing as "universal behavioral science". Psychology is a soft science, built upon hard sciences, (such as mathematics, biology and physics), as well as other soft sciences, such as sociology. Dissonance theory is no less a valid area of study than most any other area of psychology. Actually, it is more "universally" accepted, than many other areas of psychology, since it does a very good job of explaining a complete picture of what is actually going on better than its competing theories.

While what you state concerning the two conflicting thoughts existing at the same time is the dissonance, you are oversimplifying the contexts as to how and when this dissonance is experienced. Most of the time, it is not acute. It exists mostly at a subconscious level, and rarely causes much interference with normal life. Brief moments of discomfort are experienced, (such as watching a nature show on the reality of evolution, and stating "well I know that part is false"), and the dissonance resolved through that denial.

There are times, (and pointing out a GB member's gaffs is one of them for sure), when acute CD is experienced. The discomfort is immediate, painful, and triggers a response that could only be described as absolutely illogical. The alternative at that moment is to either accept the possibility that one's belief system could be wrong, (and hopefully investigate further as to why), or shut down. The latter is almost always chosen, because very deep existential fears would need to be overcome instantly, and that is likely not humanly possible for most. Cognitive dissonance cannot save one from such a state, so denial is even more likely in this acute state of CD.

I agree many ex-JWs misuse this term. I am not one of them. I think you use it correctly, even if your take on the science being somehow less valid than other areas of psychology is simply not true. Where I mostly differ with you, is in the black and white approach you are taking to when this dissonance is experienced. It is not "one and done". It is ongoing, (usually in the subconscious), and at times becomes acute, when evidence is directly presented to the conscious mind.

d4g

41

The elders of the 1980s are now in their 60s and 70s

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

having just come back from the uk and spoke with some witnesses to find out how my old congregation is doing, i realized i am now the age that my elders were when i was a kid.

and i wonder what the elders who are now in their 60s and 70s are thinking when they look in the mirror and an old face looks back at them.

many of the elders in my old hall are now retired.

done4good

ToesUp - I always found these type of statements disturbing. Sometimes I think of 9/11 when all those innocent people lost their lives. Their families lost their loved ones. Then I think of statements like the one made above. Can you imagine someone watching those buildings collapse having those same thoughts as stated above? Very sick indeed!

I heard many shortsighted and cold comments from JWs concerning 9/11 almost immediately after it happened, and for the next several months. I think this played a big part in helping me wake up then.

d4g

35

Cognitive Dissonance

by LexIsFree in

jw
friends

the cognitive dissonance amongst jws has never been more obvious to me then what i just experience in the last 5 min.

long story short i had a phone conversation w/my mom about some things and i mentioned to her to look up what has been going on with their beloved organization in australia.

brother geoffrey jackson of the holy governing body was caught lying numerous times about several subjects including disassociations & shunning.

done4good

CalebInFlorida-In the end, once denial is chosen there is no more dissonance as denial is a solution which brings relief.

Yes, but an effort to avoid cognitive dissonance drives that denial decision. At some tacit level, the mental stress becomes unbearable and forces them to shut down, and go into that denial. A person not experiencing such pain would much more readily accept the dis-confirming information and simply adjust their thinking. The problem is, in order to do that, the whole belief system needs to go with it, and that they won't do. Very deep, (and usually existential), fears force the decision of maintaining belief and going into denial, once the cognitive dissonance brings that mental stress to their attention.

Cognitive dissonance is deeply ingrained in human evolution. Animals flee potential danger, even if a more rational view of the potential threat meant that not running away would be safe. Animals don't reason, they react. This helps ensure survival of the species. Humans have evolved a conscience, that allows them to make rational and/or moral decisions when the evidence calls for it. When that evidence presents itself, (such as a person's religious views as being false), a strong, (however tacit), fear is usually experienced. This happens precisely because the new evidence is recognized as likely valid, and poses a threat to their beliefs. This is cognitive dissonance, and represents a mentally unstable state for a person to remain in. The fear is usually too powerful for them to overcome, so as such they go into shutdown/denial mode.

The mental gymnastics described in the OP is what people will go through to justify their shortsighted decision to forego the cognitive dissonance, and investigate further. This causes long-term mental health effects in of itself, as has been pointed out.

d4g

59

Introducing Myself

by Peony in

i've finally got round to joining the site (after over 2 years lurking!

i was born into jws, pioneered for 10 years (met my husband at pioneer school).

had health issues that saw me catapulted away from 'the centre of the cong' and wow what a different place that was!

done4good

Welcome, Peony. Great story!

d4g

41

The elders of the 1980s are now in their 60s and 70s

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

having just come back from the uk and spoke with some witnesses to find out how my old congregation is doing, i realized i am now the age that my elders were when i was a kid.

and i wonder what the elders who are now in their 60s and 70s are thinking when they look in the mirror and an old face looks back at them.

many of the elders in my old hall are now retired.

done4good

My experience has been that beyond a certain age, (~50), people either begin to lose interest and become more apathetic, (and sometimes end up leaving), or become much more hardcore. I believe a lot of it has to do with missed opportunities, (or what is known as the "sunk cost" fallacy), where someone that spent their lives chasing a belief at great cost to themselves, begins to feel that they have no other choice than to stay the course. They will double down on their beliefs just as the problem gambler does when nearly broke.

As a bit of an anecdote, not long after a I left, I was speaking with a JW friend that you and I both know, (he of course was trying to convince me to come back). In speaking of his father, (who was well into his 70s at the time, and an ex-elder), my friend had asked him one day if he still believed. His answer was actually quite honest. His father said that "Since I had believed this long, and lived this life this long, what else can I do?". Deep down he recognized it was probably all for naught, however at 70+ years old, could not face that reality. Very sad, and very typical of those in this age group.

d4g

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

done4good

CalebInFlorida -

Yes, completely understand cognitive dissonance is not denial. In fact, everything you state about dissonance theory is 100% correct. And yes, as in all psychology, it is a soft science, and not something all psychologists agree upon.

My point is that cognitive dissonance is almost a given amongst the thinkers of the JWs, because reality points to a universe that works very differently from the one that JWs claim to believe in. Deep down they do know this.

Their response to the cognitive dissonance is very much what you describe of your pastor friend. They actually dig their heels deeper to avoid the effects of the cognitive dissonance, at least for a period of time, and often that time period lasts years, if not decades. A person can only take so much of the conflict, so shutdown is a common response. The belief in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of that belief is just another form of mental shutdown. It is only when a person is forced into the state of cognitive dissonance to such a degree that their normal shutdown mechanisms are no longer effective, that the cognitive dissonance actually forces them to wake up.

d4g

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

done4good

Xanthippe - Sometimes I think it is the very reason that we suffered so much in the religion, because we were always questioning. You are still questioning now when you ask, why me. Those that accept things find the religion and possibly life in general easier to deal with.
If you constantly question everything your whole life it can make life quite uncomfortable. It's easier to just go along with the crowd but you obviously can't do that. It's not about being a good person it's about thinking for yourself.

This is also spot on, and realizing that "being a good person" had nothing to do with my ability to wake up and leave is exactly what made me an atheist in due time. It was about intellectual curiosity and self-honesty. These are higher level needs, (self-actualization in the Maslow sense), and many cannot get there until more basic needs are met first. Most people never get there, not just JWs.

d4g

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

done4good

CalebInFlorida - There's still debate about it, and probably always will be, but there may be a lot more free will and less brainwashing in systems like the Watchtower than people would like to believe.

Interesting point. I do think the very nature of cults in terms of what allows them to develop and thrive has to do with what I would call "collective cognitive dissonance". At some level, many, if not most deep down know they are not being told the truth, however chose to believe anyway for purposes that have much to do with lower level human needs such as security, (in the Maslow sense). Cognitive dissonance is the result of reality conflicting with what members choose to believe, to appease their own need for security. Replicate this 8 million times in aggregate, and create a system that only promotes its leadership from within, and it becomes more clear as to why what we perceive as "cult mind control", comes into play.

d4g