i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.
an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.
survival is at the core of what belief is about.
Fisherman - Faith is logic based on solid fact, like taking medicine that works.
Not according to Merriam-Webster.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
Fisherman - Facts do not trump other facts and that is the sophistry of your argument assuming that faith is based on belief (not a talking horse) and if the basis for faith can be invalidate with any new facts whatsoever.
???
d4g
i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.
an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.
survival is at the core of what belief is about.
The Rebel - done4good " the part of the two sentences lost in the ellipsis is key"
The Rebel, sorry about that, and I apologise if I inadvertently in my post took your comment out of context.
The Rebel.
No offense taken. I just wanted to point out the specific idea I was attempting to convey.
d4g
i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.
an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.
survival is at the core of what belief is about.
DJS - I methodically removed each stone, examined it - and when I found it wanting - cast it away. Then I dug up the foundation and threw that away. No emotion. No looking back. And the best thing I have ever accomplished.
This is a process, and takes time. It took about 5 years for me, after leaving the JWs.
d4g
i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.
an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.
survival is at the core of what belief is about.
Cofty - It's understandable. I recall when I had hospital tests a few years ago, when I came round from the anaesthetic I was met by a specialist nurse with a bunch of leaflets of the, "So now you're F***ed Here are 10 Things You Need to Know" variety.
Logic says I should have read them avidly and asked lots of questions. What I actually did was to politely decline them and tell her if she gave me a card I would be in touch when I was ready to talk. She was wise enough to agree.
Sometimes temporary denial has it's place.
Agreed, and this is a key reason we need to be aware of why trying to "force" facts on someone can be potentially dangerous. A person needs to be ready to accept them.
d4g
i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.
an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.
survival is at the core of what belief is about.
The Rebel - Done4good " humans have developed a concience and the ability to reason.....,our most primal instinct is to survive first"
The Rebel:- I believe humans like animals don't rationalise, they instinctively feel. Both animals and humans " ethical and moral conscience " even from the beginning of creation has been to sacrifice life for a sibling.
The part of the two sentences lost to the ellipsis is key. Our most primal instincts, (which have existed in the animal kingdom for hundreds of millions of years), have allowed species, (including humans), to exist a very long time. These instincts are much more powerful, than the relatively recently evolved conscious awareness that humans are capable of using.This is why that conscious awareness does not play a dominant role in situations where a human perceives something to be threatening, (such as something that might bring their belief system into serious question).
d4g
i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.
an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.
survival is at the core of what belief is about.
I posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...Thoughts?
An unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact. Survival is at the core of what belief is about. In the biological sense, belief is an extension of our psyche beyond our five senses and what can be directly observed by them, (as is intuition, however intuition is based on abstracted information by those senses, belief is not). Animals that are potential prey do not reason. They react to perceived danger. They choose to believe a certain danger exists, based on limited input, (such as the sound of the trees or plants around them moving = a predator that wants to eat them), as opposed to reason whether the danger is real or not. This allows them a better chance of survival, and preserves the species over time.
Humans have evolved a conscience and the ability to reason, however in the evolutionary sense, this is a recently developed ability. Our most primal instincts are to survive first. If we look at this from the perspective of Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, survival is the most basic, being a physiological need. This is followed by the needs for safety, love, esteem, and finally, self-actualization. Accepting facts is the centerpiece of what self-actualization is all about. Most humans never even get to this level, since rarely are all of the lower level human needs met sufficiently. To expect humans to care about facts at the risk of their survival is precisely why humans react to cognitive dissonance by digging in deeper, and even more resolved to ignore facts when we push them on this. The reality is, their belief, (however misguided and dangerous it might be), is regarded as a safety net to protect them. When facts are presented that cause them cognitive dissonance, they become fearful that their belief system, (their safety net), is at risk of failing. Their first instinct is to rebuild that net, at all costs. Even the most intelligent people are at risk of this self-delusion, because of its relationship with basic primal survival needs.
All ideologies, (religious, political, etc.), are very suspect to this type of logical fallacy.d4g
interesting video, shame it wasn't about jws.
http://youtu.be/-1bdbkjbzzy.
what a would be your top 5 shocking things you found out about jws on the internet?.
Terry- The will to believe is apparently much stronger than the need to know.
This is an unfortunate artifact of evolution. Survival is at the core of what belief is about. In the biological sense, belief is an extension of our psyche beyond our five senses and what can be directly observed by them, (as is intuition, however intuition is based on abstracted information by those senses, belief is not). Animals that are potential prey do not reason. They react to perceived danger. They choose to believe a certain danger exists, based on limited input, (such as the sound of the trees or plants around them moving = a predator that wants to eat them), as opposed to reason whether the danger is real or not. This allows them a better chance of survival, and preserves the species over time.
Humans have evolved a conscience and the ability to reason, however in the evolutionary sense, this is a recently developed ability. Our most primal instincts are to survive first. If we look at this from the perspective of Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, survival is the most basic, being a physiological need. This is followed by the needs for safety, love, esteem, and finally, self-actualization. Accepting facts is the centerpiece of what self-actualization is all about. Most humans never even get to this level, since rarely are all of the lower level human needs met sufficiently. To expect humans to care about facts at the risk of their survival is precisely why humans react to cognitive dissonance by digging in deeper, and even more resolved to ignore facts when we push them on this. The reality is, their belief, (however misguided and dangerous it might be), is regarded as a safety net to protect them. When facts are presented that cause them cognitive dissonance, they become fearful that their belief system, (their safety net), is at risk of failing. Their first instinct is to rebuild that net, at all costs. Even the most intelligent people are at risk of this self-delusion, because of its relationship with basic primal survival needs.
All ideologies, (religious, political, etc.), are very suspect to this type of logical fallacy.
d4g
okay, i'm about to engage in a major word vomit.
just giving you fair warning as your time may be better spent somewhere else.. so, i'm sitting on my lunch break, bawling my eyes out, and writing on this forum to people i don't know yet probably have a great deal in common with but at the same time, used to scare the daylights out of me.
for years, i would come across this forum and 'lurk' awhile if you will, or see things on youtube.
Stephanie61092 - The brother passing mics refused to let me touch the microphone. instead, he reached over 4 seats to hand the mic to the brother and then rushed around the entire section of seats so he could collect the mic from the other side of the brother. I was floored. I know I'm disfellowshipped, but I didn't think I was a ghost or a leper. I was still a living, breathing human who could pass a damn microphone.
You get a very different perspective of the organization when forced outside of its "normal" structure. I saw this even when under public reproof, not even DF'd. Very revealing. In my case, I know it prevented me from even wanting to bother to get my "privileges" back. It was a very surreal experience, and not in a good way. There is only one way to go from there...
d4g
was not sure where to post this, but i was curious, how do some of you now feel about the military?
would any of you let your children enlist, or would you yourselves join any military field?
how do you feel about the idea of women in the military?
Btw, if you have not been to the Vietnam Veterans' memorial in DC, please do so. It is difficult to articulate the impact this makes. Seeing those thousands of names of soldiers who died, presented in such a way, will change you forever. It blew my mind when I saw it in 1999, (still very much a JW then). I am not one to get emotional about such things, and could barely get through it. I was with some colleagues from work and it took every ounce of mental strength I had to not start bawling by the middle of the monument.
This is not a game.
d4g
was not sure where to post this, but i was curious, how do some of you now feel about the military?
would any of you let your children enlist, or would you yourselves join any military field?
how do you feel about the idea of women in the military?
My view on the military, (as well as many things these days), is far from black and white.
On a practical level, the military is necessary. There simply exists no other way to protect a larger community of people, (we call these countries), without it. As long as survival is the primary driver of human existence, some form of armed protection is necessary, in aggregate. Bad and dangerous governments do exist, and pose a practical threat to innocent people. Something is needed to balance this. I am appreciative of anyone willing to put their life on the line for the greater good of the larger community I live in. I view it as hypocritical to think otherwise.
Having said that, I cannot think of many military initiatives post-WW2 that the US has been involved in that I would have supported, apart from those that had a primary focus of humanitarian effort. Korea,Vietnam, the first Gulf war, Afghanistan, and especially Iraq, all were tactical in nature, and in the end caused greater threats over the long-term. The evidence of this speaks for itself. The Cold War unfortunately was a by-product of WW2, and likely unavoidable, however. Fortunately, we managed to not blow the planet up yet. We had some very close calls during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and during the Reagan "Star Wars" years. Much of that was classified for a long time, and has since surfaced. Scary shit, really.
Our military model is also very outmoded. Once of the big problems with the elimination of the draft, has been that most who enlist, (not those in training for office), do so because of having no other opportunities, (such as higher education or entrepreneurial skills), available to them. This is fine during peacetime, when either a career can be built from this directly, or one can use take advantage of the GI bill later. This fails badly however during times of war, (which the US has perpetually been involved in at some level since 9/11), when troops are forced to do multiple tours of duty, simply because no newer recruits are added to the roster. In effect, this becomes a race to the bottom for the underprivileged. I think this is a big ethical issue we need to face. It will require a paradigm shift of sorts on many levels, however before that will happen.
d4g
