Posts by skeptic2

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

In 2001 JoAnne Scarpellini was 1 of 27 people who signed a petition for George W. Bush to do the following:

-- Order that any currently classified UFO-related records
undergo immediate review for declassification and public display;

-- Prohibit the future classification/censorship/withholding of
any UFO-related records unless the U. S. president personally can be
assured that such action is in the nation's best interests;

-- Release all former and current military-intelligence and
operations personnel (including civilian/contract employees) from their
oaths of secrecy as regards their hard-core UFO knowledge.

I like the implicit assumption of the petition that there are government personnel that have 'hard-core' UFO knowledge!

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

More from BLT Research, where they claim (in 2002) that they are soon to publish a paper showing 'remarkable results'.

Levengood has reported finding tiny holes in the plant stems that he says are caused by microwave energy heating the plants from the inside out, turning the water they contains into steam. Levengood and Burke have patented a way to replicate this phenomena, claiming it could lead to new types of plants that grow faster than their conventional equivalents.

Conventional scientists typically quickly dismiss the BLT claims, but not everyone is as sceptical.

New York philanthropist Laurance S. Rockefeller recently funded the research team to embark on its biggest crop examination yet.

Soil samples were taken from crop circles in the Netherlands and the US, along with hundreds of plant and soil samples from a seven-circle barley formation in Canada, and were examined using a process similar to that adopted by Conrad.

Preliminary results showed crystal growth similar to those achieved in a laboratory when temperatures of more than 600C are used.

Seeking confirmation of the findings from the scientific community, Talbott sent the results to emeritus professor of geology and mineralogy at Dartmouth College, Dr Robert Reynolds, who is considered a world expert in X-ray diffraction analysis of clay minerals.

In a letter to the BLT team, Reynolds wrote that the heat required to have made the observed changes in crystallinity would have incinerated the plants.

"In short, I believe that our present knowledge provides no explanation," Reynolds said.

The BLT Research Team's website says that an academic paper presenting the "remarkable results" of this study is in progress and will be submitted for publication soon.

Source

This paper has been promised on the website since at least February 2003, as the Wayback Machine's archives show. It has been linked from their web site ('Clay-Mineral XRD Study') since at least March 2004.

So in a minimum of 2 years they have failed to get it published. It seems a little disingenuous, or at best hugely optimistic, to still list it in the 'published materials' section of the site and to still describe it as 'in progress'.

But failure to be published in a peer-reviewed journal has not prevented a review of this 'paper' by the National Institute of Discovery Science, a "privately funded science institute engaged in research of UFOs, animal mutilations, and other related anomalous phenomena". Even with their credulous bent, they feel compelled to list these shortcomings of this latest BLT study:

The limitations or shortcomings of their study are given below, followed by explanations.

Plant roots not collected to examine evidence for heat damage from adjacent clay minerals.
Not enough samples were collected and analyzed to overcome uncertainty.
Results from one crop formation are not enough to validate conclusions.
Their report does not reference clay mineral studies that show clay mineral alteration due to heating.
Their report does not reference clay mineral studies that show why statistics are needed for Kubler Index analysis.
Their report was not published in a peer-reviewed journal.

1. Only the aerial portion of the plants collected were studied. No roots were taken and examined for damage due to heating or other causes. Root tips are the fastest growing portions of plants, and the most sensitive to damage from heat. Soil samples were taken only as deep as 1/2 inch, which would have been above most roots and root tips. A second set of soil samples with roots should have been collected to show if the clay mineral effects are limited to the top of the soil, or penetrated down as far as the root tips. Damaged root tips would be a secondary method of verification that clay samples experienced extreme although temporary (flash) heating.

2. More sampling is needed, since 83 soil samples are not enough to assure skeptics that another 50-100 samples wouldn't have changed the statistical results. Even if money to process only 83 samples could be obtained, additional samples should have been collected and stored as backup for later study, especially by another laboratory. Because nine samples were lost in the mail, a backup set of samples would have provided replacements.

3. Because a significant number of crop formations have been hoaxed, it is important to show that the results obtained for the 1999 Edmonton crop formation can be reproduced in unhoaxed formations, and also show that similar results cannot be obtained from hoaxed formations. This report and study should be regarded as a pilot study that indicates scientifically valid and important information can be obtained in larger studies. With more comprehensive sampling, questions raised in this review could be answered.

4. Information from other relevant studies needs to be added, along with references, when this study is published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It is important to show that only through heating to high temperatures do clay minerals change crystallization characteristics.

5. Information from other relevant studies needs to be added, along with references, when this study is published in a peer-review scientific journal. It is important to show that statistics are needed to detect clay mineral changes in laboratory experiments, and that these changes correspond with what is found in nature.

6. To gain recognition, consideration through peer debate, and ultimate acceptance in the scientific community, this study must be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

Source

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

Comment on BLT Research by James 'The Amazing' Randi of the James Randi Educational Foundation (an educational resource on the paranormal, pseudoscientific and the supernatural):

STOCK REPLY FROM KSTP AS EXPECTED

Reader Ted Vriezen of St. Louis Park, Minnesota, wrote to his local TV station KSTP in Minneapolis/St. Paul, re their 10 p.m. news coverage of a "crop circle" story:

To whomever at KSTP (please forward this to the appropriate responsible person):
I was very disappointed by your recent crop circle story as seen at www.kstp.com/article/stories/S1897.html?cat=1
I consider this crop circle story an example of very irresponsible reporting. Crop circles have been debunked a number of times as hoaxes done by people walking with boards under their feet, not dragged as the farmer in the story suggested. And using ropes, a variety of geometrical patterns can be made. You made absolutely no mention in your story of the possibility of a hoax which is, by far, the most reasonable explanation for crop circles. The proposed pseudo-scientific theory from BLT Research about plasma vortices descending from the upper atmosphere causing the crop circles has absolutely no legitimate scientific support. I suggest you talk to someone in your meteorology department.
Why was this story of the crop circle occurrence presented in this way? Were any legitimate scientists consulted? Someone from the U of M perhaps?
Do you intend to have a follow-up story of any kind to bring any kind of closure to the story?
Please. Someone respond to this.
Thank You.
P.S.: Look at these web sites.

Ted listed a few sites that would explain the true nature of this "phenomenon." In response to his 194-word, well-stated and clear inquiry, he received 37 words back from KSTP spokesperson and assignment editor for 5Eyewitness News, Nicole Bonanni:

Thank you for your email. I am sorry that you disagree with the presentation of the crop circle story. Currently there are no plans to do any kind of follow-up. We do appreciate your comments and concerns.

Obviously the meteorology department was not consulted, the U of M was not called, and scientists were left out of consideration; the story was too good to investigate too carefully — or at all. I really don't think that KSTP's Ms. Bonanni really appreciated Ted's "comments," nor had any respect for his "concerns," despite her assurances. He is, after all, only a consumer — not an advertiser. As for "BLT Research," who gave them the "plasma" claptrap" that they embraced, I see they have parapsychologist Bill Roll working with them. That explains a lot.

That was a stock lawyer-vetted response from KSTP that translates as, "Though we represent to our public that we present facts and valid information to them, we really don't care, and we choose to ignore any criticism that interferes with our uncritical promotion of pseudoscience, quackery, and superstition."

This is not evidence for anything, but serves as a warning that BLT Research, Inc, and it's research conclusions are potentially not supported by the scientific community at large.

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

Big Dog, are you proposing that we throw away the scientific method? If so, what would you replace it with? How do you suggest we evaluate claims made by others?

One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have. - Albert Einstein

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

Joanne Scarpellini is described as a fieldworker of BLT Research, Inc.

The following papers have been published by this group (led by W.C. Levengood):

Dispersion of energies in worldwide crop formations in Physiologia Plantarum (1999)
Semi-Molten Meteoric Iron Associated with a Crop Formation in Journal of Scientific Exploration (1995)
Anatomical anomalies in crop formation plants in Physiologia Plantarum (1994)

This research has been examined by CSICOP (the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal) in 1996 and found wanting:

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

I admit that qualification of a claimant is a crude way of making an instant assessment of the validity of a claim. I wouldnt ignore a claim if a claimant wasn't qualified in that field, but if they are qualified that is a useful piece of information.

So let's ignore that, and concentrate on the two more important factors: peer review and replication.

There are many ways in which a single piece of research, or single finding, or group of findings from the same researcher, can be very flawed.

Thats why the scientific process demands not only peer review, but replication of the experiment by other scientists, to see if the same results are found. You can't make much of any experimental results until these two things have happened.

So the question is, has Joanne Scarpellini published her findings in a peer-reviewed journal, and what is the opinion of the community of scientists who work in this field?

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

I saw a program here in the States a few months ago about crop circles that pointed to the above. Scientists here could not prove or disprove some of the circles as being man-made, but they couldn't really offer a scientific explanation either. Some were clearly hoaxes, but others were not.....

I soooooo bet they weren't scientists, pseudo-scientists at best. These shows almost never feature the skeptics (who usually are scientists, i.e. people who practice science) who could easily destroy the fantasies involved.

Remember how the Watchtower can always find a seemingly impressively qualified and well regarded crank to back up any of their nonsense.

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

Big Dog - 'totally yammering' - have I touched a nerve?

84

Weird crop circle sighting...

by troubled mind in

jw
friends

my husbands cousin lives in a small rural area in illinois and over the weekend crop circles appeared in their soybean crop .

i just talked to his cousin , and she is beside herself from all the publicity .

she said the phone started ringing at 6am this morning .

skeptic2

What does a patent clerk in Switzerland know about the physics of light?

For each Einstein there are a million cranks. Your opinion is, because one in a million does know what he's on about, we have to believe everyone?

Einstein followed the scientific process - he presented his ideas for peer-review. They were not just accepted at face value without further evaluation. We do not now have the Theory of Relativity because Einstein said it, but because the hypothesis was tested and verified.

58

Are witnesses Christians?

by KW13 in

jw
friends

.

i know that all religions have their flaws, so do you agree that witnesses should call themselves christians or are they 'too un-christian'?.

the baptism, i think proves its different, they are baptized into an organization, that forms part of the questions...agreeing that the society is god's earthly representation.. personally i feel they are not christians.

skeptic2

[misread post]