The current organization shares very little with the organization that existed in the 1914-1919 timeframe that was supposedly when Jehovah chose them to be his channel of communication to mankind. So what was it that God saw in this group that made him choose them? And if what they taught was so wonderful, why have they changed so much of it since then?
LisaRose
JoinedPosts by LisaRose
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It's OK to be an Apostate ... but only if you're on the Governing Body
by Simon inlook at the governing body.
none of them believe now what the wts believed back when they were born and later baptized.. so why aren't they disfellowshipped for apostasy?.
simple - because the true beliefs are always taken to mean whatever they currently consider them to be.. think about it - they can never be apostates because whatever they decide to believe becomes "the truth" and anyone not believing it is then guilty of apostasy, even if they believe things the wts has taught them all their lives.. if you do believe in the bible and jesus story, do you think this is what he intended?
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In the past we taught it, but now we teach other thing....
by opusdei1972 ini have been reading the watchtower study edition of march 2016. here some deceptive statements so as to justify their new lights:.
when were gods people held captive by babylon the great?.
that spiritual captivity lasted from the second century c.e.
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LisaRose
For a number of years, we explained that this captivity began in 1918...The Christian congregation, in effect, was held
captive by Babylon the Great. That captivity began sometime in the second century C.E. and continued until the cleansing of the spiritual temple in the time of the end...
So they have exchanged one ridiculous teaching for another ridiculous teaching, it's not new light but new dim. The keep trying to make events that happened in 1914-1918 somehow important and a fulfillment of bible prophecy, when there is really no evidence of any of it. They claim God looked down on the earth and approved of the international bible students, because they were the only group teaching truth, but they hardly teach anything now that was a doctrine back then, so what was so impressive about them as opposed to any other religion? At least most mainstream religions didn't make ridiculous and failed date predictions.
They based the 1914 date on an incorrect date for the fall of Jerusalem, so the only thing impressive about it was their luck that world war I started in that year. Nothing they actually predicted to happen actually did. They also still taught many things they now condemn, like Christmas and birthdays. -
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State lawsuit against Jehovah's Witnesses
by Coded Logic inthe first of many lawsuits?.
(edited).
november 09, 2015. wilmington, delaware the attorney general's office is suing elders of the sussex county congregation for not reporting an unlawful sexual relationship between a woman and a 14-year-old boy, both of whom were congregation members.. state law requires any person, agency, organization or entity who knows or in good faith suspects that a child is being abused or neglected to call a 24-hour hotline.
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LisaRose
They have tried to claim clergy penitent privilege before, but I think they usually fail, because a confession usually involves one person and a priest, there is an expectation of confidentiality. A judicial committee is nothing like that, the person knows going in that there will be no confidentiality, there are all three elders involved, other elders in the congregation who may be told plus they always inform Bethel, and often an announcement that some action was taken is given to the congregation. there is nothing sacred or secret about. But they will do anything to avoid doing the right thing, which is to notify the police in cases of child sex abuse whether it's required by the law or not. -
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Are single sisters happier?
by Esmeralda001 inthis question is for the ladies out there, but if you are a man and you'd like to share your thoughts on the following topic you are welcomed to do so.
given the wt society's view on women, did any of you ladies gave up on the idea of getting married "in the truth".
in such case, did you sometimes feel that you were missing out?
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LisaRose
Thank you for your answer. I am sorry that you were trapped in an unhappy marriage for so long! The WT society advises young people to wait until they are mature enough before making such a big life commitement. May I ask you why you married so young? Did your parents agree with your choice?
Many factors contributed. At the time we were told that Armageddon was imminent, I married in 1973, the big A was supposed to happen in 1975, and the religion taught at the time that after Armageddon people were going to not marry, so if you didn't get hitched before then, no sex for you. It was silly and I was very, very immature. Of course you should wait until you are mature to marry, but college was not permitted, so my options were to get a job and live at home (young, single women were discouraged from living on their own) or get married. I was painfully shy and still under eighteen and couldn't get a job at the time (McDonald's didn't hire women then) so I was desperate to get out of the house, my mom had terrible mood swings and was borderline abusive, she saw me as a failure and was hyper critical of everything I did. She once slapped me in the face she caused a severe nose bleed.
Like many young women, I saw marriage as a ticket to adult hood. Of course people act different when they are dating, but I admit I closed my eyes to some signs he was selfish and fairly immature himself. But the question is, do you let someone suffer for years because they made a foolish mistake? Did I have to be punished because I was a silly teen aged girl? Surprisingly my parents did not oppose it, although I am sure they had their reservations. My ex was newly baptized, he had a past and had done some horrible things, like dealing drugs, but was trying to shape up. But they were friends of his parents, and I think they thought it was my best option. Within six months my ex stopped going to meetings, in a few years he was disfellowshipped. I slogged on with the religion by myself. He also couldn't keep a job, he had probably twenty or thirty jobs in the twenty eight years we were married, I lost count, it might have been more. My mother confessed to me that she wanted to tell me to leave him "but of course I couldn't". That just made me mad, if I had had any sympathy or encouragement I would have left him in a heartbeat. I would have gladly lived celibate for the rest of my life, but by the time I did finally leave, the stupidity of the whole thing made me lose my faith in the religion. We don't live in bible times where a woman is stoned if she is raped (but only if she lives in the city, cause she should have screamed) or where it can be fixed by a forced marriage and twenty sheep given to the father. The bible reflected the morality of the time, not universal truly the that are the only way to be.
Divorce may not be the ideal, but it is a reality. You could even call it a sin, but why do you have to disfellowship people because they left an intolerable situation? I am not the only person forced out because of this. Others manage to manipulate the system and get a convenient divorce, but I couldn't lie and be that much of a hypocrite. I knew a man that claimed his invalid wife confessed to adultery, he got a divorce and married his wife's (much younger) caretaker and stayed an elder. It happens, and they get away with it, especially if it's the man who makes the claim. Others have their JW spouse leave them because they left the religion, even though it's technically not grounds for divorce.
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Are single sisters happier?
by Esmeralda001 inthis question is for the ladies out there, but if you are a man and you'd like to share your thoughts on the following topic you are welcomed to do so.
given the wt society's view on women, did any of you ladies gave up on the idea of getting married "in the truth".
in such case, did you sometimes feel that you were missing out?
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LisaRose
I was a classic example, rushed into an early marriage at 17, made a mistake in who I chose and had to live with that bad choice for 28 years, as divorce was not an option. I eventually left both the marriage and the religion, as my health began to suffer and I just could not tolerate the mental pain. It's a shame it had to come to that, if I had been allowed to divorce I would have had a very different life. I was told that it was always better to preserve the marriage no matter what, which is probably the worst advice I ever got in my life. All I did was give my children a bad example of what marriage is, my children are now paying the price for that in their own lives. My suffering was for nothing.
The Watchtower model of early marriages and no divorce is a failure. Rather than resulting in happy marriages and intact families, it results in failed marriages, unhappy marriages and people getting disfellowshipped because they see no other way out. Choosing to stay unmarried is fine if that's what you want, but it shouldn't be a decision you make because your choices are so limited.
They solution is to stop using a book written thousands of years ago as a guide to morality. Sex outside of marriage is not some horrible thing and pretending it is just make young people rush into marriage, because young people have a natural and normal desire to have sex. They shouldn't be made to feel guilty for doing what people have done for thousands of years. Instead they should focus on how to have a healthy relationship, and how to be responsible about sex.
If people do make a mistake in choosing a marriage partner they should be allowed to divorce, not forced to stay no matter what, that is just a recipe for disaster.
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SHUNNING - Unchristian Psychological Torture
by EdenOne insome time ago, i wrote an extensive article on shunning and published it on my website.
since that website had views on doctrinal matters that no longer reflect my current stand, i took the website down.
however, my views on this matter are still current, and for the benefit of everyone here, i'm going to post the article here.
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LisaRose
My point is, you aren't making an effective argument. You're taking a book that can be interpreted countless different ways and interpreting it differently. That's all. From the perspective of a Jehovah's Witness the bible does justify shunning, and you cannot prove it doesn't.
As I said in my private message, this is my opinion, which as far as I know I am entitled to have. I gave my reasons, you are free to disagree, but I am not going to be drawn into a debate about it or argue the point, I have better things to do with my time.
But I am wondering why, if my argument was so weak, you sent me a private message and posted the exact same response here twice? It seems like what I said really bothers you, which makes me think that my argument wasn't actually weak at all. Just sayin' .
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SHUNNING - Unchristian Psychological Torture
by EdenOne insome time ago, i wrote an extensive article on shunning and published it on my website.
since that website had views on doctrinal matters that no longer reflect my current stand, i took the website down.
however, my views on this matter are still current, and for the benefit of everyone here, i'm going to post the article here.
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LisaRose
ymore I generally try to stay out of bible debate because it's all interpretation. But you're factually wrong about the bible not encouraging shunning.
I didn't say the bible doesn't say to not talk to people for religious reasons, but it isn't done as the Jehovah's Witnesses practice it.
The old testament isn't really relevant. No Christian Church stones people for adultery, even the JWs.
As an atheist, the bible is not my guidebook anymore, but the point I am trying to make is that the Watchtower has very little biblical basis for the way they practice shunning.
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LisaRose
Jewish people believe in ritual circumcision, they have a ceremony and the baby has his foreskin cut off, something that is very painful and mutilates the penis, and has no particular health value, according to many experts.
I am not trying to say that this is evil, or an indication that the Jews are barbaric, (I circumcised my own son, although I wouldn't make the same decision now) but trying to put this in perspective. We tend to excuse the ancient customs that we are comfortable and familiar with and demonize those of other groups, that seem strange and threatening. Both the bible and the Quran have things that are disturbing to most people today, because they were written in a different time.
I don't like the radical aspects of Islam, and I am an Atheist. But I see a huge difference between radical Islam and the majority of Muslims. Yes, there are disturbing things in the Quran, but that doesn't mean every Muslim believes in a literal interpretation of it, anymore than all Jews stone people, even though the bible approves of it. If you condemn an entire religion for the actions of a small percentage of them, then you are creating enmity of a very large group of people, when it is only some of them that are threatening you. This is not only stupid, but counterproductive. Attempting to ban Islam will cause all Muslims to side with the radicals and you will then have a much bigger problem to deal with.
It makes me sad to see the rampant racism and hatred that is flourishing now, because of these attacks of terrorism. There is far more at work here than the influence of Islam. Many of the adherents of radical Islam are not especially religious, the religion is just an excuse for their alienation and hatred of western society and their desire to be a martyr. I don't know what the solution is, but I know that racial and religious intolerance is not the solution.
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SHUNNING - Unchristian Psychological Torture
by EdenOne insome time ago, i wrote an extensive article on shunning and published it on my website.
since that website had views on doctrinal matters that no longer reflect my current stand, i took the website down.
however, my views on this matter are still current, and for the benefit of everyone here, i'm going to post the article here.
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LisaRose
Even if you accept that the scriptures approve of shunning, you have a hard time proving that the bible ever mentions or suggested shunning as practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses.
The bible doesn't say that any secret committees is to be formed, that three elders decide on who should be shunned, that what three elders decide determines that a person's family and friends have to shun him. What the bible suggests is, that if there is someone is called a brother, but is known to do these non christian things, you would not talk to them. It's quite simple really, two things have to be true, they claim to be a brother and they are KNOWN to do these Christian things.
It says nothing about leaving Christianity and then living a non Christian life. It says that a person has to be "one called a brother". The elders have been known to come after people years after leaving. What is the scriptural basis of that? It says nothing about a formal committeee. "Judicial committee" is not in the bible. Disfellowshipped is not in the bible. Shunning is not in the bible. It says nothing about a Christian leaving a Christian religion for another Christian religion.
I believe the intent, what they are saying, is if you know of someone calling themself Christian, and you know that they are doing these wrong things, then you would not have anything to do with them. It doesn't mean that they do things that your particular flavor of Christianity believes is wrong, it means a liar, an adulterer, things condemned in the bible. Early Christians had disagreements, it didn't mean they were shunned. Therefore It doesn't mean you get shunned because you don't believe some arbitrary group of men (like the governing body). If one could disagree with an apostle, what makes the elders or even the GB so sacred you must obey them?
It doesn't mean you get shunned for celebrating Christmas, that isn't mentioned in the bible. Or birthdays, or voting, or serving in the military or any of dozens of things you can be shunned for by the JWs.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have twisted the scripture to mean something never envisioned by early Christians. It wasn't to used to coerce people to stay in the church, it was meant to stop hypocrisy. It was to be decided at an individual level, when and if you knew of such sin, they were known to do such things. It wasn't an excuse for elders to question a person about their most intimate secrets, to pry, to condemn, to pronounce judgement. What the elders do is evil, they improperly decide on motive, determine repentance and pronounce judgement, which is only between a person and God. As the bible says, all have sinned and fallen short, so who are the elders to judge?
The worst thing about the Disfellowshiping process is that not only do they cut you off from your family and friends, they tell you that Jehovah doesn't hear your prayers. Can you imagine? Is it any wonder some who were disfellowshipped go on to commit suicide? Who are they to presume to speak for God? They are just men who can be wrong. We know elders sometimes sit on committee's when they themselves are involved in serious sins such as pedophilia and long term adultery. How could someone like that be doing anything approved by God? They supposedly are guided by God's spirit, but how could that be if the elder is involved in such conduct himself? What did Jesus say about the prostitute? Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Those words of forgiveness and compassion mean something, something the Watchtower ignores.
No, the bible does not justify what the Watchtower does, which is to break up families, hurt people who are going through difficult times and shut down those with valid concerns, all to protect the hierarchy of a cult.
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Survey: How long were you in the cult vs what year you were baptized
by ILoveTTATT2 inhi people,.
i want as much data as possible on the effect of the internet on the time captured by the cult.. please answer the three following questions about yourself or about someone you know (for example, if your parents or grandparents were jw's and left).
1) were you raised as a jw, or did you convert?.
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LisaRose
1) Converted at 13 along with my parents
2)Baptized in 1969
3)left in late1999
Thirty years a Watchtower slave (lol , there was a book written by that name in the fifties or sixties, we were warned about the bitter, evil apostate thing)