Posts by OnTheWayOut

102

A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates in

who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

do you find any value in suffering?.

do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

OnTheWayOut

From page 1: I am just trying to turn it around and see if I can get atheists to defend and explain their positions. Usually theists are the ones that always have to defend themselves

First of all, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!! That's rich. I don't believe in the garden of Eden and all the unsupported miracles in the Bible and God has not shown himself, but I have to defend my position. Please defend your nonbelief in any of the myriads of gods of mankind.

If some suffering is useful and valuable, where do you draw the line to what is just pure evil?

I am pretty sure I answered that in my last comment and Cofty answered similarly.

I want to add that with all the thoughts on the benefits of suffering, LS must think that God and the angels are really lacking because they don't suffer. And if you say they suffer through us, then why can't we suffer through the agony of plants or nonliving matter?

102

A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates in

who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

do you find any value in suffering?.

do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

OnTheWayOut

I don't want to spoil my answer by reading other fine answers, so I will skip reading until later.

Who told you that the world should be free from suffering?

Not even addressing the fallen condition of man described in the Bible which necessitates "the Law" and the "ransom." Let's just go right to birth defects and child abuse and the 2004 tsunami that swept away tens of thousands of children and the 2010 Haiti earthquake that also killed tens of thousands of children and maimed others. What jerk of a god stands by and lets that happen? A "God" could have easily just caused such a thing as a tragic tsunami or earthquake to not happen rather than provide a revealed miracle.

Do you find any value in suffering?

If people got some value out of the disaster, the price was too high. The agony of parents and grandparents and siblings was too much to ask for even if all those children get some future reward. If people get some value out of knowing about child abuse, the abuse for even one child is a price too high.

Do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad? Isn't good only good because we know what bad is? If there was only good would it really be "good"?

I have heard that and don't go along with it. I get that challenged people do more than unchallenged people, but I don't believe we need tens of thousands of children to die so that people can appreciate surviving. We could easily discuss the beauty and goodness and pleasure that children can find in a world without traumatic and sexual abuse.

If you where God and could eliminate suffering what would the world look like? Or conversely if there was a loving God what should we expect the world to look like?

I don't typically bother with such a "what if" question because the inquisitor simply says that there are reasons my way can't be the way. But I will answer part of it. No children would be born with mental and physical defects that cause pain or extremely difficult lives. People who abuse children would be revealed in public before I would assign them to oblivion.

21

a situation I know of and the mind set of the elders.

by joe134cd in

ok here's the situation i know of.. a women was in a situation where she was forced to reveal a hidden sin and was given a private reproof for it.

before this she had an other wise clean slate.

btw the reproof was for an unrelated matter and had nothing to do with apostasy.

OnTheWayOut

You have great comments here so far. As a former elder that was supposed to make these calls, let me say that the the best answer may be that they are busy and don't want to waste efforts on a "lost cause." It could also be that one elder is the assumed person to do this call- probably the one whose field recruiting group she is assigned to, and he just figures she doesn't want to be bothered. It could be that she is a woman and a secondary member of the JW's.

I want to address this differently. I was there. I wasn't entirely left alone for the first few years, but pretty much. I knew why in my case. I was a "doubter" whose thoughts could shake their beliefs. They knew that I already knew how to use the publications to find answers. But I was there. I was a bit concerned about them not wanting to "save" me and help me. It's a normal thing. If you didn't want to go to a wedding, you would still want to be invited. That's the kind of feeling we are talking about.

What you need to do is get over that yourself by recognizing that Watchtower is a dangerous mind control cult. What that means is that you are only useful to the group when you are a productive member. Once that ends, they don't waste much time on you. Despite the elders not knowing all this, they react the same way. Deep down, they may feel they are bothering a person to try to get them back in the fold, they may feel they have no real answers to help such a person, but deeper down- they just want to help the good little sheep that are still productive members to stay that way.

Use their lack of follow-up to recognize that they are not the wonderful caring representatives of God on earth that they claim to be. Recognize that this is a system-wide problem among Jehovah's Witnesses.

86

According to Oct.1st 2012 WT Directions- Past Child Molesters CAN Be Appointed Elders

by flipper in

considering the fact that the wt society refuses to release in courts any of it's written directions to elders through confidential letters to elder bodies- i thought i'd do the courts and wt society a "favor " by posting excerpts from this oct 1st.

2012 letter from the wt society to all bodies of elders.

these instructions are very exposing of the negligence of wt authorities in how they view the seriousness of felony child abuse.

OnTheWayOut

The best merger of our thoughts would be that Governing Body members are less concerned about the corporation paying out millions than they are about testifying on the stand or handing over documents to courts that are potentially harmful to the corporation. But when they do so, they have to crack their whips and ask that the members suffer more to give more of their money to the corporation, either by contributions or by increased expenses upon the members when their Kingdom Hall is sold.

And I do think it won't ever really change until the money dries up or what you suggest happens- criminal charges for the way they do this.

35

Before knowing TTATT did you really believe in things as...

by roberto avon in

jw
friends

did you really believe in things as ;- the earth is only 6000 years old- the 144.000- 1914, based upon the destructiono of jerusalem- harmagheddon or the end of the world coming soon???

?i married a jw when i was an interested person and studying with the jw's ( not the way they wanted) but i told my wife before marrying her that " most probably " i would never have been a jw.she accepted me as i was and married me.

after that i had interrupted the study for one year, i started all over again with an elder of my wife's cong.

OnTheWayOut

I was a mid-20's adult when I started studying, but was exposed to the teachings as a child. I was vulnerable due to my life crisis that brought me to the study table, and I truly thought God brought me to the JW's. I believed the teachings. They used just enough scripture and circular logic to make them believable.

The "Creation Book" let us know that it was only MAN who was just over 6000 years old and that earth could be much older. Just saying the 6000 years part would not be enough, but when adding in a bunch of mumbo jumbo, it seemed that Watchtower was using the Bible as the standard and working backwards to "prove" their position, when in reality they were working backwards to make their position fit. After they changed what "this generation" meant, I started looking at their explanations because I felt that I was going to grow "old" in this system of things. Over time, I noticed that their position wasn't really the best fit, especially in things concerning the importance of 1914 and what it meant for Armageddon coming imminently soon.

86

According to Oct.1st 2012 WT Directions- Past Child Molesters CAN Be Appointed Elders

by flipper in

considering the fact that the wt society refuses to release in courts any of it's written directions to elders through confidential letters to elder bodies- i thought i'd do the courts and wt society a "favor " by posting excerpts from this oct 1st.

2012 letter from the wt society to all bodies of elders.

these instructions are very exposing of the negligence of wt authorities in how they view the seriousness of felony child abuse.

OnTheWayOut

Just so we are clear, I meant that the money is not the property of individuals (Governing Body members and/or lawyers for WTS) who make decisions that cost millions. When someone decides not to appear in court in California and not to produce documents that the court is asking for, claiming a far-away court cannot compel them to cooperate, the loss of millions is from the corporation, not Gerrit Losch or Anthony Morris or Lawyer Jones. Better in a GB member's mind to let the corporation pay a bigger penalty for his refusal to cooperate than for the GB member to be put in a possibly embarrassing corner on a witness stand. Then blame it on Satan.

86

According to Oct.1st 2012 WT Directions- Past Child Molesters CAN Be Appointed Elders

by flipper in

considering the fact that the wt society refuses to release in courts any of it's written directions to elders through confidential letters to elder bodies- i thought i'd do the courts and wt society a "favor " by posting excerpts from this oct 1st.

2012 letter from the wt society to all bodies of elders.

these instructions are very exposing of the negligence of wt authorities in how they view the seriousness of felony child abuse.

OnTheWayOut

In my opinion the reason the WT Society will NOT release documentation of child abuse problems to the courts is because there are many higher ups GB members and otherwise who are involved in child abuse or committing these crimes and if the Database file was produced in the courts - it would expose SO much child abuse at upper WT power levels that it would sink the WT corporation. So WT Society would rather pay out millions $$$ in lawsuits than to risk exposure of ALL their dirty child abuse laundry coming out.

Even those who are so sure that there was none of this within current GB membership, they must know of some substantial accusations against elders, C.O.'s, branch representatives. They must have at least a handful (probably many more) cases of what seemed like unsubstantiated accusations against such men where the man did it again later.

And as far as paying out millions, it isn't THEIR personal money.

16

New donation arrangement in action locally

by respectful_observer in

recently they announced at my hall that a large donation had been made to the local congregation-- nearly $100,000.

they then proposed a resolution that we continue our new(ish) practice of only keeping enough money on hand locally for monthly expenses, and send the entire amount of this large donation to the watchtower society.

aside from the fact that our congregation has already sent well over a half-million dollars to the wt in the last 12 months, i don't understand the motive of the person who made the donation.

OnTheWayOut

It's a crying shame that such money is given at all instead of going to family or to real charities.
It could be that the money was willed for the renovations and the person never changed their will when WTS changed the arrangement.
It's also possible that it's money to get someone out of trouble. Grandma wants her grandson to avoid judicial matters or wants to help her son become an elder or stay as an elder after doing something wrong. But I kind of doubt that. Whatever, it is a total waste of resources.

12

"Gentile Times"

by zeb in

i am reading again the work.."the gentile times reconsidered" by carl olof jonsson.

it is very heavy going but he uses world sources as used by wt to totally refute the 607 thing.

he sent his studies on this to bethel ny and waited on jehovah.

OnTheWayOut

This website downloads upon clicking it: https://www.watchtowerlies.com/linked/the-gentile-times-reconsidered.pdf

12

"Gentile Times"

by zeb in

i am reading again the work.."the gentile times reconsidered" by carl olof jonsson.

it is very heavy going but he uses world sources as used by wt to totally refute the 607 thing.

he sent his studies on this to bethel ny and waited on jehovah.

OnTheWayOut

I read it quite a few years ago and passed the book along recently. It is quite detailed in debunking 607BCE. I honestly cannot even remember all the stuff that debunks, but just knowing that it was made readily available to the GB and was so casually dismissed tells me all I need to know.